Maggie BoydKeymaster07/24/2017 at 10:23 amPost count: 66
So what are everyone’s thoughts so far on Season 7? I was delighted with the start of Episode 1 and Arya’s own version of the Red Wedding and am still reeling from the end of Episode 2 and the losses suffered. I think, so far, it has been a typical season of GoT.
I like what Olenna Tyrell said about Marjery – well loved but dead. Cersei isn’t running an election, she’s a despot. She doesn’t crave popularity but power. I also liked what Jamie said last week – they have no heirs and will therefore have no dynasty. Cersei is too far gone into her own kind of madness to care but it is an excellent point.
BlackjackParticipant07/25/2017 at 1:45 amPost count: 48
Liking it so far! Random thoughts…I’m irked that Jamie is still sticking with Cersei; bring back Brienne and Tormund as their romance potential is fun; lots of interesting power dynamics coming together in single scenes; what the heck was that wolf scene about last night?; and, the battle scene was hopefully chaotic viewing for me. Granted I was doing some essay grading but I had trouble determining just what was going on and to whom. I think though that Theon made the right decision in bailing.
Dabney GrinnanKeymaster07/25/2017 at 3:15 pmPost count: 128
My son–who is ALL up on Martin’s world–says that many people believe Jamie is Lightbringer and that, as such, he will fulfill the prophecy that says Cersei will die at the hands of her younger brother. I think it’s clear, whether that’s true or not, that Jamie is losing his connection to Cersei. (They never have sex anymore!)
There’s lots of theories about the wolf–that’s Arya’s direwolf all grown up–but the one I like the best was in the NYT review:
And as the showrunners explained in their episode segment, the brief reunion between Arya and Nymeria referred back to the scene between Arya and her father, Ned, in which he envisioned a future for her defined by pretty dresses and marriage to a lord. “That’s not me,” Arya said then. On Sunday she recognized a kindred spirit in Nymeria, who has carved out her own wild life and is no longer inclined to be anyone’s pet. “That’s not you,” she said, as the wolf returned to the forest instead of joining her. Mr. Weiss said: “Arya is not domesticated, and it makes sense that her wolf isn’t either.” I still assume the main point was to introduce Nymeria so she can swoop in to save or help Arya later.
I of course was thrilled to see a sex scene that was ONLY about the woman’s pleasure.
And as much as I loath the Sand Snakes, I’m dreading seeing the mom and daughter in Cersei’s vengeful hands.
Anonymous07/27/2017 at 9:00 amPost count: 2
What gets to me, at the moment, is Sansa’s continuous undermining of Jon in public. I wouldn’t want her to show blind obedience but she – better than anyone – should know how power dynamics work. Jon and the fabulous Brienne are the only persons she can count on. She was right to remind Jon about the mistakes their father and Robb had made. But to openly question him in front of the others makes no sense. It’s actually the first time that a character’s actions truly irritate me. Well, apart from Theon’s after he meets his father and before Ramsay.
I’m enjoying the show so far. I love how all the pieces come together now. The little showdown between Danerys and Varys was brilliant. Oh, and Missandei and Greyworm……
BlackjackParticipant07/31/2017 at 6:07 pmPost count: 48
This is amazing and I had to share :)
“The Black Person’s Guide to The Game of Thrones”
Maggie BoydKeymaster08/01/2017 at 10:39 amPost count: 66
That is a funny (and yet strangely apt) way of looking at GoT.
BlackjackParticipant08/01/2017 at 5:37 pmPost count: 48
I just loved it! And Tyrion is Tiffany Trump = of course! :)
AmandaParticipant08/07/2017 at 9:03 amPost count: 12
I have been a little mixed on the season so far, but last night’s episode–WOW. Finally some major action! (Well, I should include Euron Greyjoy in that as well. That episode was also unexpected excitement.) Maybe I just have super high expectations because I think last season might be my favorite overall season of GoT so far. I find the episodes this season so far have long stretches of zzz for me but some incredible scenes thrown in. That scene last week w/ Olenna and Jamie was so good. But I’m pissed about yet another strong female character being killed off. Meh.
Dabney GrinnanKeymaster08/07/2017 at 5:02 pmPost count: 128
Yesterday’s episode was THE best episode in ages. Maybe the best ever. I am thrilled all the storylines are coalescing. The sword fight with Brienne and Arya was so good. And such an economical storytelling–Sansa saw Arya’s journey in a flash.
BlackjackParticipant08/07/2017 at 6:37 pmPost count: 48
Very good episode and probably like a lot of viewers, I had divided loyalties. I wanted Bronn to survive and I wanted the dragon to survive too. I don’t think GoT will kill off Jaime (yet!) but I didn’t want him to die last night, or Daenerys for that matter. However, Daenerys has not been my favorite character as her arrogance is annoying. I’m also not interested in a romance between Daenerys and Jon Snow as so many fans seem to be.
Arya has always been my favorite and so I loved her scene with Brienne and was intrigued by all the mystery surrounding the swords and daggers. Not sure yet I fully grasped the import of all of them yet.
Strangely, I really like Littlefinger. He was a favorite character for me on The Wire, one of the best shows ever, and I loved how he transitioned right over to GoT as such a villain. So intrigued to see where his story takes us, but he’s been an amazing survivor in these viper’s nests.
I agree, Amanda, that the Olenna scene with Jaime was pretty spectacular. Diana Rigg is just such a great actress and I’m sad to see her go.
Maggie BoydKeymaster08/08/2017 at 11:27 amPost count: 66
This season has had good moments for me but I was tired of watching Team Daenerys get their asses kicked. I was so glad to see them have a win last night! I was delighted to see Bron again (waves frantically at television “Hello!!”) and I’m glad he survived and (possibly? Probably??) saved Jamie. I mean technically, they should both drown but this is television so I expect to see them again next week. Vulture had an interesting article which included the question – Will Bron stay loyal to the Lannisters after that epic battle. It’s a good question. Cersei’s super-weapon has been destroyed by the very creature it was meant to kill. Now Dany knows they have it and can take steps to protect her babies. Also, Bron has a good sense of survival, hasn’t been paid for his years of service and has a possible ally in Tyrion. Switching allegiances at this point might be in his best interest.
I really dislike Littlefinger and was delighted to see him a bit frightened of Arya/Bran. He launched this whole mess – leading Jon Arynn to figure out that Cersei’s children weren’t Robert’s, manipulating Ned Stark into the job of The Hand and eliminating him, playing a part in the killing of Rob Stark – and you know what, I don’t mind those men’s deaths. As Cersei said, “When you play the Game of Thrones, you play to win.” But each of those men is the head of an army made up of ordinary folk forced to fight in their wars. And a bunch of people were just burned alive in a war of Littlefinger’s making. So my hope is Arya kills him in a particularly cruel manner. (Note: My feelings toward the fictional character do not extend to the actor. He seems like a very talented practitioner of his craft :-)
I was a bit disappointed that Olena hadn’t hidden the gold. I wanted this weeks episode to start with Jamie realizing that aside from a few gold-leaf painted candlesticks and chairs, the castle had been emptied of everything of value. That would have been so in keeping with her character and such a fitting F-you to the Lannisters. I am sorry to see both Olena and Marjorie gone. If they were the ones facing down Dany I would have less of a vested interest in which side won and would be able to just enjoy watching victories for both.
Overall, I agree with Dabney – this was the best episode in awhile. Definitely of this season.
BlackjackParticipant08/08/2017 at 5:50 pmPost count: 48
Aiden Gillen who plays “Littlefinger” really is such an awesome actor. Next time I see one of his videos where he does a summary of the season’s events I’ll post it here because they are great. He uses a whiteboard and pointer to demonstrate and he inserts in quick asides some of his thoughts of character demises. GoT has some of the best talent in the business on their show. Littlefinger has been one of the most insidious villains of the series, and I have no doubt he’s going to die spectacularly. I think Arya killing him off would be very fitting.
Maggie BoydKeymaster08/14/2017 at 12:26 pmPost count: 66
Highlights of last nights episode:
The return of the Arya/Sansa relationship. In the books, Arya had been close to Jon and pretty much hated Sansa, nice to see that old habits die hard.
The scene with Sam and Gilly: So cool that we now know Rhaeger’s marriage had been annulled and that Jon is probably a legitimate heir to the throne.
The return of Gendry Baratheon: Awesome!
Bron: Dragons are a deal breaker! Bron has a good instinct for picking the winning side so I will be watching his allegiances closely as we finish out our remaining seasons.
The Low Lights: Damn near everything else.
Littlefinger: That manipulative, murderous monster! What is he trying to do by opening the gulf between Sansa and Arya? I imagine it’s eliminate Arya as she would stand between him and Sansa but I swear if GoT goes that route I will . . . . well, there’s not much I can do but I sure wish I could do something mean back to them!
Jon’s brilliant White Walker plan: Snorts, yeah good luck with that! If it had been me, I’d have asked to borrow a dragon. It wouldn’t take long for one of them to burn the heck of out the Night King’s army. Or maybe Davos’s should have tried to steal some of Cersei’s green fire. Something better than what they have going now. And while we are talking of this, Dany flies now (via dragon). Why not put Jon on the back with her and find out the truth for herself?
Jamie/Tyrion meeting: First, Tyrion needs to get over himself. This is not the time to be soft, when they’ve just won their one and only victory. Two, how did he know Jamie had survived? Where did the miracle message to Bron come from? Seriously, where is this meant to be going other than to give Davos the excuse to rescue Gendry?
The continued character assassination of Cersei Lannister: Why couldn’t she show some remorse at being wrong about Tyrion? Why does she have to be such a complete and total monster? Yes, the prophecy but really let’s throw some shades of gray at her!
The baby: Uhm, no. The prophecy said Cersei would have three kids and then be murdered by the little brother. Cersei: Will the king and I have children?
Maggy: Oh, aye. Six-and-ten for him, and three for you. Gold shall be their crowns and gold their shrouds, she said. And when your tears have drowned you, the valonqar shall wrap his hands about your pale white throat and choke the life from you. Valonqar means little or younger brother so it could be Jamie or Tyrion or really any man who is a younger brother. The prophecy does not say her younger brother, though most are convinced it is Tyrion or Jamie I think Jamie might in either rage or to save her from people’s vengeance. Anyway, why add this “pregnancy”? Just a waste of time, imo.
Definitely not as strong an episode as last weeks.
Dabney GrinnanKeymaster08/14/2017 at 1:08 pmPost count: 128
I am putting together a long term contest around Game of Thrones. Anyone who can send me an envelope can enter. Here’s what I’m thinking:
1) We’ll list the top 20 characters on GoT in two tiers. You guess who is alive at the end of the series. The top ten–Starks, Lannisters, Jon Snow, and Daenerys are each worth two points. The second tier is each worth one.
2) You guess who will rule the Seven Kingdoms at the end of the show. A correct guess gets you 5 points.
3) You guess how many dragons will be alive at the end of the series. You get a point if you guess correctly.
Everyone who enters will send us an envelope with their predictions and a ten dollar bill. Write on the back of the envelope “GAME OF THRONES.” We’ll save all the envelopes and open them when the series is over. We’ll have a 1st place, 2nd place, and 3rd place winner.
Entrees must be received before the final season starts.
Interested? Let me know!
BlackjackParticipant08/14/2017 at 6:40 pmPost count: 48
Last night’s episode felt like a big info-dump as the season rushes toward the end.
I actually never thought that Sansa and Arya hated each other but more that they were sisterly rivals. They were pretty young when the show first started and it wouldn’t surprise me if they unite next season to make a formidable front against Littlefinger. I’m hoping Arya is smart enough to put the pieces together after reading the note left behind for her to discover. Littlefinger is usually a great villain but last night’s treatment of him felt heavy-handed.
Tired of waiting for Jaime to distance himself from Cersei. It should have happened long ago and even if it finally does in the final episodes, it’s too late for me. I don’t care anymore. I’m guessing the pregnancy storyline is one way to keep him tied to her.
Daenerys exceeded arrogance and is now bordering on madness. Now both queens are dabbling in monstrosity. Hopefully another option is there for Iron throne leadership. The modern audience in me wants to propose democracy for governance as monarchies are precarious things.
Bring back more Bronn next season!
The White Walkers have never been my favorite threads but maybe next week’s episode will surprise me.
I too was happy to see the return of Gendry and am looking forward to where his story takes us.
Maggie BoydKeymaster08/14/2017 at 7:44 pmPost count: 66
In the books Arya/Sansa had more between them than sisterly rivalry. In fact, Arya never considered Sansa a rival because Arya disdained the route Sansa had chosen for her life. Last night’s line about Sansa’s need to feel better than others was so spot on to the character Sansa was (is?) in the books or perhaps to say how Arya saw Sansa in the books. Arya also blamed Sansa partially for the death of her friend since Sansa lied to protect Joffrey over the murder of Mycah. Additionally, Sansa told Cersei when the Starks were escaping and Arya knows this. She knows Sansa’s desire to be Joffrey’s queen killed Ned and the others. So that will sit between them and will make the note she found in this weeks episode look even more damning in Arya’s eyes. It’ll be deeply interesting to see where this goes from here.
BlackjackParticipant08/14/2017 at 10:16 pmPost count: 48
I haven’t read the books and am only responding to the portrayal of the relationship on the TV series. It seems to me that the show has not portrayed the sisters as deeply divided though back in Season 1, they clearly took divergent paths. However, Sansa paid dearly for her loyalty to Joffrey and has grown as a character, and I think is meant to be a sympathetic figure in lots of ways. Will Arya recognize Sansa’s maturity and changes? They haven’t had enough scenes together for me to assess that well I don’t know if it really helps to know what happens in the books too much either because the show seems to have departed from the books in many ways. I’m curious too to see how the show develops their relationship.
AmandaParticipant08/14/2017 at 10:53 pmPost count: 12
I am so excited to see Gendry back!!!
Maggie BoydKeymaster08/15/2017 at 9:06 amPost count: 66
I think Sansa has grown through her suffering so it will be interesting to see if Arya can put the past behind her. I certainly don’t dislike Sansa but she doesn’t make my list of people who simply must survive the show :-) I was really impressed with how Maisie Williams played that scene, though. It gave me chills. It was a moment for me that truly brought characters I have known for decades to vivid life but I also just loved how it showed the pain that Arya is still in for all that happened to her as a result of a few people’s grasp for power. She hasn’t forgiven or forgotten. We know that from the start of this season when she reminded us that “The North Remembers.” It will be interesting to see if she can let go over the course of the next seven episodes when we reach our finale.
Dabney GrinnanKeymaster08/15/2017 at 1:10 pmPost count: 128
And see I find Arya very hard to take. Revenge at all costs is not a successful motto in a world that needs to come together. I hope she and Sansa both survive the show–they’ve both lost so much and are still so young.
Jenna HarperParticipant08/15/2017 at 5:52 pmPost count: 16
Oohh…a fun group to dish Game of Thrones with!
So, about Jaime. Is anyone else frustrated that Jaime continues to be so in to Cersei? It’s not because Cersei is evil and I want Jaime with someone good (Brienne?!), it’s because that relationship makes Jaime look very stupid. For a very long time, Cersei has not shown to have one single redeeming quality. Nothing about her is lovable or even likeable. So the fact that Jaime continues to bow and scrape to her doesn’t so much speak to some kind of great love he has for her, or even the history that they share. Rather, I think Jaime ends up looking like a simpleton. How anyone could like a person like Cersei is baffling. Each week, I just shake my head at Jaime the Dupe.
Am I really weird for hoping that Gendry and Arya end up together? I’m hoping that once this is all over, Arya is one of the survivors, and that Gendry manages to soften her. She’s this killer assassin and I’m not sure how she finds her way back to a place of peace and non-violence. Her anger runs so deep.
I’m totally shipping Dany and Jon, but dang if Dany and Jorah Mormont didn’t have some serious vibes going on between them. I know that Dany and Jon are related, but I so don’t care. Maybe the fact that we’ve all come to accept Cersei and Jaime’s twincest as somewhat normal, I just can’t get too fussed about a romantic relationship between and aunt and nephew. Isn’t that awful?
Can we make predictions here? I know it says Spoilers but predictions may be another level.
Maggie BoydKeymaster08/15/2017 at 9:20 pmPost count: 66
Feel free to make predictions!
I don’t want Jamie with Cersei, although to be honest in the books he’s portrayed as a bit dim so his staying with her sort of works. She’s always been the brains of the operation but in the show, I like Jamie and hope he figures this thing out. Soon.
I’m fine with Arya as is. Westeross isn’t a democracy and in a place where the Game of the Thrones is played people like Arya and Varys are going to exist. Arya isn’t Baelish; she doesn’t do evil for personal gain. The people she targets are mass murderers, not someone who failed to pass her the salt at the dinner table. I’m hoping she takes an active part in Jon’s government when he’s king – she’s completely loyal to him and perfect for the job! Just imagine her turning her talents to spy work over assassination.
I hope, hope, hope Bron switches sides (he seems to be heading that way) and marries Sansa. He was promised a bride, he deserves one and who is left besides Arya and Sansa? Really this show has been brutal on women.
Gendry. *sigh* Please don’t let him be a sacrificial lamb. A character for me to care about so I cry when he faces that GoT motto “All men must die”.
BlackjackParticipant08/15/2017 at 11:47 pmPost count: 48
I’m good too with Arya as she is because she has reasons for her vengeance and she is a product of a violent world. I agree too that she is not a villain. She’s not power hungry or cruel for its own sake. I hope Brienne can be a model for her as she continues to mature. I really enjoyed their scene together.
If we’re wishing on romances, I would want Brienne and Tormund. I do not want Jon with Daenrys but that’s because I find Daenrys pretty close to unbearable and getting worse with each episode. Jon deserves better.
Maggie BoydKeymaster08/16/2017 at 10:40 amPost count: 66
I hadn’t even thought of Brienne and Tormund because the big ship has seemed to be Jamie/Brienne but B and T would be pretty awesome together. I don’t want to get my hopes up though. They haven’t killed any major characters (aside from Olenna and she’s a stretch as major) this season unless one counts Arya’s version of the Red Wedding. I’m trying to keep my attachments low and my hopes lower so that my heart doesn’t break. :-) I’m rooting for Jon, Arya, Tyrion, and the dragons to make it. I have hopes for others :Sansa, Daenrys and Varys, Tormund, Brienne, Bran (only because they’ve killed a bunch of Starks already, damn it!) Grey Worm, Bron,Missaendi, but I’m afraid of the coming episode. They might want to go out with a bang and leave us reeling for a whole year from the death toll.
Jenna HarperParticipant08/16/2017 at 11:07 pmPost count: 16
My son couldn’t resist and downloaded the leaked episode – he says it was amazing! I won’t let him tell me anything about it, though. (And while I don’t condone his actions, at least we pay full price for HBO all year so he would have seen the episode anyway.)
So…predictions. I predict the following (no spoilers, just my thoughts!):
1 – Brienne will kill Jaime Lannister. It will kill her to do it, but she’ll have no choice.
2 – Arya will kill Cersei wearing Jaime’s face.
3 – Arya and Gendry will end up together.
4 – Jon and Dany will end up together and become King and Queen of the 7 Kingdoms. Sansa will become Queen in the North
Can’t wait for Sunday :)
BlackjackParticipant08/17/2017 at 4:51 amPost count: 48
My predictions, though I’ve been wrong a number of times about this show :)
1- Daenerys and Jon Snow will end up together, though I’m opposed for the record!
2- Jamie will kill Cersei
3- We will see the death of a dragon – it has to happen.. The show has been predicting this all season
4- Sansa will kill Littlefinger
Dabney GrinnanKeymaster08/17/2017 at 11:06 amPost count: 128
I realize the show is pro-incest ;) but Jon and Danny would be gross.
Jenna HarperParticipant08/17/2017 at 11:57 amPost count: 16
Yeah, in my head I know that the Jon/Dany thing is a big no-no. But I’m sorry, they are just too appealing as a couple for me. I’ll ignore the incest part :).
Dabney GrinnanKeymaster08/17/2017 at 1:48 pmPost count: 128
It never fails to amaze me that all of the world is watching a show with an incestuous couple one of whom we’re rooting for. It’s nuts.
Maggie BoydKeymaster08/17/2017 at 10:10 amPost count: 66
Jenna: I love the idea of Arya killing Cersei while wearing Jamie’s face. It would be such a cool twist on the prophecy while still giving Arya the satisfaction of killing Cersei.
Blackjack: I like the idea of Sansa killing Littlefinger. It would make a nice closing of the circle to the whole Song of Ice and Fire, with Baelish’s obsession with Cat launching the destruction of house Stark and his Cat replacement, a Stark, finishing him off. What a beautiful justice.
I’m sure we are going to loose a dragon but I don’t want Cersei’s army to do it. I hate for her to have that victory. On the other hand, according to a vision Dany had in the house of undying “”The dragon must have three heads”. That’s always been interpreted as three riders for three dragons, so we’ll see what happens.
I too can’t wait for Sunday :-)
Anonymous08/17/2017 at 2:50 pmPost count: 2
@ Dabney: Good story telling :)
Dabney GrinnanKeymaster08/17/2017 at 6:26 pmPost count: 128
I think too that many of our sexual mores, things that we consider OBVIOUS, were no such thing in much earlier times. Married in your teens, married to your cousin–these were norms that now–thank the gods–we shun. Martin’s world hews to the medieval and I strive to take his characters’ behaviours through that lens.
Jenna HarperParticipant08/18/2017 at 11:58 amPost count: 16
Not to go off on too much a tangent, but the whole incest thing is actually fascinating. Now, I believe 1000% that incest between immediate family members (parents/children, siblings) is always, always, always 1000% wrong and gross, but if you think about the reason for the social taboo, incest between cousins doesn’t bother me as much. The whole point of avoiding sexual relations between relatives was to avoid possible birth defects and other abnormalities that might arise given the limited gene pool between the two parents. That’s why marrying cousins that are several “removes” apart is somewhat acceptable. But in the past, why would marrying a first cousin whom you’ve never met before be “gross”? And in the case of Dany and Jon, since Dany cannot have children*, there is no danger of birth defects between them. They did not know each other growing up and thus no parent/child or siblings dynamic exists. They are, in effect, two strangers who just so happen to share a common relative – Jon’s father is Dany’s brother. It would be one thing if Dany were an older aunt who helped raise Jon and then the relationship became sexual – that would be absolutely gross. But maybe the reason that the whole prospect of the two of them together doesn’t bother me is because I don’t see them as family members in any way other than shared blood. I think incest is taboo because of that familial relationship and shared history.
As far as Jaime and Cersei, I’ve so long ago gotten over the shock factor of their relationship (my grossness over it just always hums quietly in the background) and am almost more affronted by the fact that Jaime continues to love a woman who is so clearly a sociopath. That almost bothers me more than the ick-factor around him sleeping with his sister.
* Why are we so sure that Dany cannot have children? I know it’s been said, but I can’t recall ever knowing exactly why. Did the death of her baby at the end of Season 1 leave her infertile? Anyone shed some light on this?
Dabney GrinnanKeymaster08/18/2017 at 2:06 pmPost count: 128
Mirri Maz Duur who was Dany’s midwife and was also a witch made it clear Dany is barren. Dany believes it to be true. Who knows?
AmandaParticipant08/17/2017 at 10:37 pmPost count: 12
I watched the leaked episode and let me tell you, I can’t remember the last time I was so stressed watching an episode. It’s a good one, but it’s A LOT to take in.
BlackjackParticipant08/18/2017 at 12:14 amPost count: 48
I’ve heard from someone else too that the episode is pretty wild. I’m scared now but also really looking forward to it.
Jenna HarperParticipant08/21/2017 at 10:30 amPost count: 16
Okay, after last night’s episode, I have a new prediction. It’s one that makes me sick, but I’m predicting it anyway.
I predict that Jon will get Dany pregnant. I think that she’s not really barren, because if you really read the prophesy that Mirri Maz Duur said, it doesn’t say that Dany CAN’T have kids. And a lot of her cryptic “when the sun rises in the west and sets in the east” stuff can be non-literal.
So…Jon and Dany will have a relationship and be in love and Dany will get pregnant and then Jon will die.
The Targareyan line will be assured and Dany’s child – a boy – will be the saviour prince that Melisandre has predicted and the one to ascend the Iron Throne.
All of the emphasis last night on Dany’s successor and her inability to have kids really seems like a set up for her to get pregnant, much to her surprise. And since too many people would have an issue with a happy-ever-after for Dany and Jon given the fact that they are aunt and nephew, I think this means poor Jon is a goner. Also, Jon’s death would solve the problem that, technically, he’s the one who has the higher claim to the iron throne even over Dany, but she’s been set up to be the one and only Queen.
I will cry real tears if they kill off Jon because he’s probably my favorite character.
Here’s another guess: I thought that Jorah Mormont would probably die before the end of the series, giving his life to save Dany in some way. But now I think that Jon will die and Jorah will marry Dany and help raise Dany and Jon’s child.
Dabney GrinnanKeymaster08/21/2017 at 11:35 amPost count: 128
As Buffy would say, “A world of No.”
Jorah and Dany grosses out–he is literally able to be her father at 26 years older than she is. At least let her get Daario back.
She deserves better than an old guy!
Not to mention the whole incest thing I still struggle to get past.
If she has to shack up with an older man, I’m hoping for a Tyrion/Dany match instead!
Jenna HarperParticipant08/21/2017 at 12:40 pmPost count: 16
BlackjackParticipant08/21/2017 at 1:11 pmPost count: 48
I could see the Jorah and Danerys hook up with Jon out of the way. I hadn’t really thought of Jorah as old, though he’s definitely older than Dany.
After last night though, it occurred to me that Brienne might be a better leader than nearly all of them.
I wasn’t expecting a zombie dragon. What does an ice dragon breath out of its mouth? Honestly though, the dragon’s death was deeply affecting. Every time one of the dragons is in danger I feel emotional and last night’s episode was difficult to watch.
I’m disappointed in Arya. She really can’t grasp the horrors her sister has endured. Plus, Sansa made some good points that stumped Arya during their argument. Strangely, Sansa sent Brienne away and right after she seemed to fall for Littlefinger’s suggestion of having Brienne mediate a Stark family fight. What is Sansa up to?
Brienne and Jaime nail biter coming??
Anyway, I’m here in Portland, Oregon at 10:08 am where we are having a total solar eclipse in 10 minutes. It’s getting dark and the birds have just stopped chirping. I’m working from home today and am so curious to see how my pets react. Right now, they just look bored. We’re heading outside to absorb it all now, but it is already so cool. Hope others are in the path of totality today and get a chance to view it all.
BlackjackParticipant08/21/2017 at 1:58 pmPost count: 48
Back inside now :) One other thought about last night’s episode:
The Hound asks, “How does she look at you?” Like she wants to carve you up and eat your liver?”
Tormund whispers reverently, “You do know her!”
My hopes are still alive for a Brienne and Tormund relationship and the “Amazon children” they would bear.
Dabney GrinnanKeymaster08/21/2017 at 6:07 pmPost count: 128
I’m going to be an outlier and say I think as the writers move away from the books, the series has become less interesting. It’s such a cliche for Jon and Dany to be together–unlike Tormund and Brienne who are a delight. Martin’s world is brutal and horrific but it never panders to the audience. A Jon/Dany pairing seems so… Disney.
I feel the same way about the miracle non-drownings of Jon and Jamie. Did you look at the furs Jon was wearing? The weight of those combined with hypothermia should have done him in. I’m a bit sad that as the show progresses it’s clearly being written to make audiences happy. I’m all for HEAs but I don’t think they’re true to Game of Thrones DNA.
Jenna HarperParticipant08/22/2017 at 11:22 amPost count: 16
I can’t argue that a Jon/Dany hookup is super predictable and absolutely unoriginal as far as storytelling goes. And there are so many plot holes and world inconsistencies that it is impossible to ignore them.
But…I gotta say, if this is all fan service, then I’m okay with it. I know it’s not the same world that GRRM created back in the beginning, but that doesn’t bother me. At this point, I WANT to see Jon and Dany together. And I understand that the limited number of episodes left requires some stupid storytelling hacks that really don’t make logical sense (teleportation anyone?).
I guess I’m just invested in the story that is being told as it is, rather than perhaps the way it should be based on the original GOT protocol established in the first seasons. I haven’t reached my jump the shark moment yet. I’m not a purist, I guess.
I think I’m just an easy, cheap date. :)
Dabney GrinnanKeymaster08/22/2017 at 12:54 pmPost count: 128
No no no no! You’re exactly the right viewer for the show for you! One of the things that makes GoT so fun is that there’s a world for everyone. It’s not that you’re easy–it’s that you care about different things. And that’s great! And, for what it’s worth, my 21 yo daughter told me I was out of my mind for not liking Dany/Jon and that I was “being negative as usual.” ;)
Jenna HarperParticipant08/22/2017 at 11:30 amPost count: 16
As an argument against the Jon/Dany relationship being nothing more than fanservice, it appears that GOT Dungeon Master GRRM had planned them as a couple all along. From a Newseek article:
“[Alan Taylor] told Deadline that he was aware all the way back in Season 1 that the plan was for Game of Thrones to eventually unite Dany and Jon as a power couple. “[A Song of Ice and Fire author] George R.R. Martin came to visit. He was sitting in a chair, and he was being really quite open about things that were to come,” the director said. “He alluded to the fact that Jon and Dany were the point, kind of.”
Dabney GrinnanKeymaster08/22/2017 at 12:52 pmPost count: 128
I read that and wondered what that meant. Still doesn’t work for me!
Maggie BoydKeymaster08/22/2017 at 8:43 pmPost count: 66
Jon and Dany don’t ick me out. The foreshadowing on this, with the refrain of brother/sister relationships from the Targaryen history, has me well prepared for the possibility. :-) I do think the books hinted heavily at this match up and I’ve actually been expecting them to get together for the last decade or so. In the books, if I remember right, Dany’s brother had hinted that she was more on loan to Drogo than married to him because it had been his plan to use the Dothraki and then take his sister to wife. That’s one of the things I love about sci-fi/fantasy. It forces you to re-examine the unacceptable. :-)
I’m completely traumatized by the death of Viserion. No excuse for that GoT! Now the freaking Night King has a dragon mount.
I think the show has made a mistake in not showing us more of a review of the Sansa/Arya relationship. It seemed so fitting to me that their relationship be fraught with tension since the last time they were together was season one and they most definitely didn’t get along back then. For Arya, coming back to find Sansa the Lady of Winterfell, was a confirmation of all the worst things she has ever thought about her sister. She will not let her be queen if she can help it. Hopefully, they will figure out soon who the real enemy is because honest to God, I want Baelish dead. I want Arya or Sansa to do it.
Also, does anyone else think it possible that Sansa isn’t a Stark? She looks like Caetlyn according to the books/shows and there is nothing very Stark like in her behavior or demeanor. And if anyone is capable of pulling a Donkey Skin it’s Baelish. He’d always been obsessed with the mother, if he seduced her and produced Sansa I can totally see that disgusting toad getting off on being with his daughter that so looks like her mother.
BlackjackParticipant08/23/2017 at 12:06 amPost count: 48
Yeah, I agree the Sansa/Arya relationship is a bit of a puzzle and the show has not done enough to clarify the undercurrents, but I say that as a viewer of the show rather than a reader of the books. I interpreted their first season relationship more in terms of sisterly spats and some jealousy but not deep antagonism. I’m finding it difficult to figure out why Arya feels so much contempt for Sansa. I especially did not care for Arya’s inability to discuss Sansa’s history. As viewers we know all that Sansa has been through and it just seems cruel at the moment for Arya to be so dismissive.
I don’t feel icked by the Daenerys & Jon relationship. I do though feel concerned, if that’s the right word, that Daenerys is invested in ruling out of selfish reasons of self-aggrandizement, and in recent episodes her behavior has see-sawed between arrogant to potentially monstrous. If we’re supposed to read Tyrion’s expressions correctly, I think we’re asked to feel concerned. I want to see what the show does with all of this. I also do not think the show has done that much to set up a romance, and so in this respect, I just don’t feel much excitement about it – yet anyway.
I also want to say that days after the show aired, I still feel such sadness about the death of the dragon and sad too for Daenerys’s loss. As usual for me, the death of animals is very painful. I hated when the dire wolves were destroyed too.
Maggie BoydKeymaster08/23/2017 at 11:41 amPost count: 66
I feel horrible about the dragon. :-( and the wolves. They all gave their lives for causes that weren’t theirs; it seems unfair.
I really, sincerely hope that GoT show runners start to make the deaths meaningful rather than gratuitous. Next week has me very worried for the Unsullied; they better not kill Greyworm just for emotional manipulation purposes. I feel the same about Gendry – is he back just so I can cry at this death?
According to everything I’ve read season 8 will be only 6 or 7 episodes long. We have only one episode left this season. While we’ve had the long awaited meeting of Dany and John, the reunion of the remaining Starks at Winterfell, the return of Ser Jorah and the return of Gendry I feel that all we’ve done this season is another move of the players in this game. I want the last season to be truly different and deliver a satisfying ending. I don’t want the last scene to be someone sitting down on the Iron Throne, indicating the game is finally over. I want a bit more pay off than that. :-)
chrisreaderParticipant08/24/2017 at 12:23 amPost count: 35
I think the show runners have handled the Arya and Sansa relationship pretty clumsily (it’s like my worst complaint about a romance novel- one conversation with any two of the Stark siblings would clear everything up) but I think also the show and people have forgotten their history,
The show keeps harping on Arya seeing Sansa in a “pretty dress with pretty hair” when Ned was executed but the real strain between the sisters doesn’t stem from that and is very understandable from Arya’s perspective.
Sansa flat out lied about what happened with Arya, Joffrey, Nymeria and Micah the butcher’s boy in season one. Sansa didn’t want Joffrey not to like her so she lied and betrayed Arya (which endangered Arya’s life as crazy Cersei would have hurt her and wanted to if Ned hadn’t intervened). It backfired on Sansa because it ended up costing the life of her Direwolf Lady instead of Nymeria, Arya’s Direwolf (and Arya lost her by having to reject her and chase her away to save her life). Worse than anything, it cost the life of Micah, Arya’s friend who Joffrey sent the Hound to hunt down and murder. It’s something that never bothered Sansa because the lives of servants meant nothing to her and she saw herself as the wounded party, but she never blamed Joffrey for attacking Arya and Micah and lying about it or Cersei for being so cruel, she blamed Arya.
This was Arya’s first taste of Sansa lying and betraying her family to get what she wanted. It wasn’t a just a petty sisterly squabble it cost Arya the life of her friend and really showed who Sansa was. It’s not crazy for Arya to think that years back Sansa might betray their father for her beloved Joffrey. The show has done a lot to try to rehabilitate the character of Sansa and left out a lot of stuff from the books because the writers felt the audience would just hate Sansa if she did what she did in the books and ran to Cersei with Ned’s plans. Betraying the Starks yet again, keeping her and Arya from escaping King’s Landing as Ned planned and even costing Ned his life and honor as he agreed to lie and beg forgiveness because he was trying to spare his daughters.
Sansa always resented Jon as Catelyn did, and was cruel and dismissive towards him. It’s not crazy for Arya (who hasn’t seen Sansa in years) to imagine she resents Jon, a bastard, being named King In The North.
So there are good reasons for Arya to distrust Sansa, but for some reason the show doesn’t want to present them. I think it’s because they have rehabilitated Sansa, given her a different storyline and don’t want Arya’s grievances to be real so that the audience will still like Sansa and forget about the awful things she has done. They can have a happy reconciliation in episode 7 without Arya saying “remember when you helped Joffrey essentially murder that young friend of mine and you never regretted it or cared about it”.
BlackjackParticipant08/24/2017 at 2:18 amPost count: 48
I think the show has been quite kind to Sansa and given all she has been through, the audience has sympathy for her. Season 1 was years ago and therefore there is much distance between the conflict between the two sisters and where they’re at now. And at the time Arya and Sansa both seemed not much more than children, which mitigated much of the harm Sansa caused. I also viewed Sansa as inadvertently causing a chain of events. Cersei and Joffrey clearly were of a different beast than Sansa. Sansa unknowingly set herself up to be virtually imprisoned and mistreated, which put her in the position of being a victim of the Lannisters rather than in collusion with them. So, just from my perspective as a casual viewer rather than reader, Sansa is not anywhere near a villain and the conflict from Season 1 just doesn’t stand out to me as a reason for Arya and Sansa to be at odds now.
Jenna HarperParticipant08/24/2017 at 10:54 amPost count: 16
My issue with the Sansa/Arya situation is that, after all these girls have gone through, their rift is beyond petty. Without any solid proof whatsoever, Arya is accusing Sansa of trying to oust Jon and grab power. It’s as if the writers of the show know that there is no good reason for the sisters to be so hostile to each other so they are manufacturing conflict.
I don’t believe that Arya would hold such deep grudges against Sansa based on childhood rivalries. As far as what happened with Joffrey and Micah and all of that, I think Arya has matured enough to understand that things aren’t so black and white. Ned even try to explain to her why Sansa was in an impossible situation – that for Sansa to go in front of the King and Queen and call their son (and her future husband) a liar was simply not reasonable to expect. I do agree that this whole thing reeks of the Big Misunderstanding, where if Sansa and Arya were to sit down and tell each other about all that they have gone through, each would have a completely different and sympathetic vision of the other.
Too, Arya’s character is being assassinated (no pun intended!). She’s gone from a wronged party with a list of people who rightly deserve justice to a psycho paranoid. I’m sure that after all she’s gone through and being trained as an assassin, Arya would have her fair share of issues. But the Faceless Men was not a group that engaged in brutal violence for the sake of intimidating people or as a threat, thus the philosophy they would have imparted is not what Arya is now personifying. She’s acting unhinged, not like a girl with a legitimate grievance.
I keep holding out hope that we are only seeing a tiny piece of a puzzle that will pan out by the end of the season to reveal a complete picture that makes more sense. In which case, then I fault the writers for leaving the viewers in the dark about Sansa and Arya’s true intentions as a manipulation to try to wring out some kind of drama or big reveal. They aren’t playing by the rules of the game. Instead of laying the groundwork for a long con, which we should all be included in, they are instead giving us unreliable narrators and pulling bait and switches that just aren’t fair.
Maggie BoydKeymaster08/24/2017 at 11:28 amPost count: 66
I don’t think Arya’s point is petty at all. She didn’t just see Sansa with Joffrey at her father’s execution. She knew that Sansa had given Joffrey and Cersei information that had led to Ned’s death. There have been a host of betrayals from Sansa, not least of which was the fact that she didn’t see the warning signs of who/what Cersei and Joffrey were until after they had started abusing her personally. When Joffrey was acting like a nightmare to everyone else, when Arya, Ned et al were seeing him for who he was Sansa was still being a starry eyed child over the whole thing. Arya, many years her junior, was far more clear sighted. Given that Sansa actually blundered into getting their father killed it is no wonder that Arya questions her fitness to rule now. Additionally, Sansa did all she did because she wanted to be queen. Now Arya comes home and finds Sansa once more hanging out with a dangerous enemy (Baelish) and listening to complaints about the family (session where people were complaining about Jon) and parading about as the Lady of Winterfell. She is right to be wary. Sansa was a petty child, it is natural for Arya to wonder if she is still that person.
That said, it has been years since season one when the two characters were last together. It makes total sense for the two of them to revert to their previous relationship and for them to have all the old problems between them but it makes zero sense for the show runners to expect the audience to be in the same place. We see each of them for who they are now, they see each other as who they were before. It’s on the writers to provide the viewers with scenes that either explain that gap or bridge it and they aren’t doing that as of right now. We’re running out of episodes and I’m growing concerned that we seem to be sort of spinning in old problems rather than resolving them and moving forward.
Jenna HarperParticipant08/25/2017 at 11:13 amPost count: 16
What information did Sansa give to Joffrey and Cersei that led to Ned’s death? At least as far as the show as concerned, I don’t recall any specifics – can you refresh my memory? And as far as her wanting to be Queen, I got the impression more that she wanted the glamour aspect of being queen – being married to a handsome prince and wearing fancy gowns and being the belle of King’s Landing society. Not so much that Sansa wanted power that she would get as the queen. I think that Sansa’s experience have changed her substantially, and now she does crave actual power. But as for her younger self’s desires, I didn’t get that read.
Maggie BoydKeymaster08/25/2017 at 11:31 amPost count: 66
To answer any of this, I need to go back and watch Season 1 but she shared something that Ned was doing with Joffrey that tipped him off to one of Ned’s plans. In the book it was much more pronounced – there she told Joffrey that they were leaving King’s Landing, which resulted in them getting captured and killed but in the series it was much more subtle. I can’t remember it as well because I haven’t seen it in a few years. I’m planning to re-watch the seasons over the course of our next year long wait so I am really into the swing of things when we finally get to season 8!
As far as the craving for power, I sure thought that was captured by the series and not just the books but I’ll watch out for that when I re-view season one. This could be one of those Harry Potter moments – where everything is clear if you’ve read the books but you’re sort of left guessing if you haven’t. Certainly for me Arya and Sansa’s relationship looks like a more adult version of what it has always been but perhaps that is being influenced by what I’ve read over what I’ve seen. I won’t be sure till I take a second look at everything.
Jenna HarperParticipant08/25/2017 at 11:53 amPost count: 16
I rewatched the episode, and a couple of things from the scene at the end with Dany and Jon stuck out for me.
Firstly, Jon is the first person that Dany has really allowed herself to be vulnerable around. I’m trying to recall when else in the series Dany has actually shed tears, and the only times I can remember are when she’s raped by Drogo on her wedding night and when Drogo and her baby son die. Otherwise, I always recall Dany being very strong and stoic no matter what she’s facing. Even her telling Jon that she hopes she deserves his people’s admiration and respect, she’s admitting uncertainty for probably the first time I can ever remember. I think that’s really telling. Compare, for example, how she is around Tyrion vs. how she is around Jon, and she’s known and trusted Tyrion for much longer.
Also, I’m probably slow on the uptake, but I thought that Kit and Emelia did a great job expressing feelings without saying anything. Jon is gazing at Dany deeply, Dany tries to pull her hand out of his but he tightens his grip slightly, she realizes that what Tyrion had told her about Jon falling in love with her might be true, she’s shy about her own feelings, the intensity of his gaze increases before he lets her hand go. It was so subtle but really effective. And Jon’s look reminded me so much of The Look!
Maggie BoydKeymaster08/25/2017 at 12:00 pmPost count: 66
Just to clarify – Sansa wasn’t power hungry. She wanted to be a princess – to have people think her special and treat her special, but as a child she wasn’t anxious to accumulate power for the sake of ruling people. She was pretentious more than anything else.
BlackjackParticipant08/25/2017 at 4:29 pmPost count: 48
I think I agree that Sansa from Season 1 was pretentious. However, a girl wanting to be a princess is not exactly the stuff of villains, even in GoT. Wanting to marry a prince too seems fairly standard romance trope territory. I don’t remember Sansa getting her father into trouble, but if she did, it was never vindictive since my recollection is that she loved her father?
As a quick aside, I briefly saw an article title from Vanity Fair, I think, yesterday in which the author theorized that Arya is playing Littlefinger and that the feud with Sansa is fabricated for show to trick him. Not sure if that pans out but it strikes me as badly handled by writers if that turns out to be the case since Sansa and Arya’s recent feuds have been in private mostly.
Jenna HarperParticipant08/26/2017 at 12:04 pmPost count: 16
@Blackjack, totally agree with you if it is the case that Arya is just setting up Littlefinger, that it’s being poorly handled by the writers. In such a case, they are keeping us viewers too much in the dark in order to pull of some Big Twist, and instead of coming as a neat surprise, it just makes us feel tricked. You can’t completely assassinate the character of a key player only to come back and say “Just kidding, she was faking it!”
Maggie BoydKeymaster08/26/2017 at 1:27 pmPost count: 66
I think the article you mean was published by Esquire. Here it is:
As it stands after Sunday’s episode, the Arya and Sansa storyline back in Winterfell is completely aggravating. Neither of their actions in the last few episodes have made much sense at all for their characters. They’re embroiled in some petty feud over a letter that Littlefinger planted for Arya to find. The Stark sisters are playing right into Littlefinger’s game—and it seems unlike either of them. Naturally, Game of Thrones fans have been scrambling to find an explanation for their weird behavior.
One very compelling theory is that Arya is deliberately putting on a show for Littlefinger. Perhaps this is all an act, Arya playing the long game until she eventually kills Littlefinger, as Game of Thrones fans have speculated for years. As one Reddit user pointed out, Arya arrived at Winterfell as herself, and has been acting and investigating without a mask:
Arya can change faces, yet she isn’t using that ability currently. Why? Because Littlefinger doesn’t know she can do that and she WANTS him to see her, Arya Stark, snooping around. Arya has enhanced senses from when she lost her sight, she knows that Littlefinger has been following her. Its also been mentioned that Littlefinger has a certain scent, most likely the only one there who has that type due to his wealth and connections, thus easy for Arya to track with her enhanced sense of smell. Littlefinger doesn’t know that Arya was trained by the faceless men. Based on what he knows he can only assume that she has no real training hence why he doesn’t question why she’s acting so sloppy and obvious.
Which makes sense. If Arya has been trained as an assassin who can change her appearance, why the hell would she sneak into Littlefinger’s room as herself? Certainly she wanted to be seen by Littlefinger as Arya sneaking into his room. And, she must have known he was there.
So, what about Arya and Sansa’s conversation in Episode Six? That was also pretty clearly a setup. It’s unlikely that Arya would just leave those creepy ass masks lying around like that. And it also seemed pretty coincidental that she just walked into the room right after Sansa found them. The key in this scene is that the two were playing the game of faces and Arya made it clear that she was lying about everything. And at the end, she handed Sansa the dagger as gesture of loyalty.
This, it seems only clear, is Arya playing the long game, leading Littlefinger into a false sense of security before she assassinates him. With Littlefinger out of the way, the Knights of the Vale have already made their loyalty to Sansa clear. Another possibility is that after killing Littlefinger, Arya could then get a Littlefinger mask to lead the Knights of the Vale.
They also have a very interesting counter theory:
For years, fans have been asking for the Starks to reunite on Game of Thrones. And this year, the writers finally delivered, bringing Sansa, Arya, and Bran together in Winterfell. Well, almost. They’re all different…
Bran was dragged through the snow for a few years and cooped up in a cave having visions and animorphing into various beasts. Sansa was subjected to multiple wars and terrorized by evil men after she watched her father get beheaded. Arya was a slave, a beggar, blind, and eventually an assassin after getting her ass beaten every day for an entire season. In other words, they all have some baggage.
So these greetings weren’t as satisfying as one might hope. Which is fine, but not exactly fun for us viewers to see these depressing meetings and the awkward bickering and stares. But maybe there was some subtle foreshadowing when Bran greeted Sansa and Arya, as one Redditor pointed out:
When Bran reunites with Sansa at Winterfell (S7 EP3) he very clearly does not embrace her back when she is hugging him (we see a view that shows his hands remain by his side). In fact, while Sansa hugs him he stares blankly beyond her (which yes, I recognize is kind of his thing to do now). However, when he reunites (S7 EP4) with Arya he does hug her back (a view is shown with his arm around her), and while his face is still blank-ish, there definitely appears to be a hint of concern as he stares over Arya’s shoulder at Sansa (who looks down). Bran knows that something is not right with Sansa and that she will likely do something that hurts her family. He made a point of arming Arya with that dagger, which he can see she will have to use for some reason not yet known to us. Will she have to kill Sansa?? Only Bran knows for now.
Let’s take a look. Bran does seem less engaged when he’s greeting Sansa. His hands are underneath that squirrel pelt cape and there’s no sign of him making a move to hug her.
Now let’s look at how he acted when he saw Arya. He was certainly more personable, and you can clearly see his hands around her. But, as the Redditor points out, he’s staring directly at Sansa.
As another user pointed out, it’s possible that Bran just needed some time to acclimate to becoming a regular-ass human again. But that doesn’t seem to quite fit with what we know of Bran now. He speaks in riddles, like his “chaos is a ladder” comment to Littlefinger. Everything is deliberate—part of his role is seeing the future, past, and present all at once. He’s doing exactly what he needs to do to set events in motion. That’s why he hasn’t told anyone about Jon’s real parents or anything else he’s seen in his visions. They aren’t supposed to know yet.
These clues could be as subtle as hugging his sisters when he sees them. Maybe he knows Sansa will betray the Starks. Maybe he knows Arya will be the one to kill her. That would be an intense turn of events, but in Game of Thrones, anything is possible. And if you think Bran’s greeting is too subtle to be foreshadowing, remember King Robert’s first scene back in Season One, and how it predicted the fate of all the Starks?
BlackjackParticipant08/29/2017 at 5:58 pmPost count: 48
My random thoughts on the season finale:
Are Danerys and Jon fans satisfied by their hook up? I wasn’t a fan of them getting together, but if you are a fan, the heavy handed parallel scene with Bran illustrating the incestuous nature of their relationship must take some of the happiness away, if for no other reason than that it surely forebodes trouble for them. Will Jon want the throne now that he’s the heir, and if so, will Daenerys step aside gracefully? Her character arc has been one of steely determination to become queen.
Like many fans, I did love seeing so many of the major players come together for the negotiations, but for some reason, the scene was a let down for me. I think one reason is that, yes, the wight was frightening, but I think they are really terrifying when you see the sheer numbers of them. A far scarier prospect would have Cersei taking a dragon ride over their armies to get a better sense of the scope of the threat and what she’s going to be facing. Seeing one just doesn’t have the same effect for me, even though it was mentioned that over 100,000 of them are marching toward Westeros. I admit to kind of rolling my eyes too when everyone saw it and capitulated immediately. Of course, we learn that was all a fake out.
I did not like the way everyone cottoned onto the word “the Great War” as if its title was voted upon and then ratified. Wars gain monikers over time and with the hindsight of history, not in one conversation before they even begin. Small thing, I know, but I can’t help feeling that GoT has lost some of its more sophisticated writing.
Too many fake outs in this episode. Not only does Cersei fake out her enemies, but Arya and Sansa fake out Littlefinger, who I think might have been onto them if the show was being true to his character. Some of us discussed last week the improbability of the Stark girls fighting as if they were out for blood. Those scenes now I guess are supposed to have represented entrapment for Littlefinger. Were we supposed to believe he was hiding under the bed during their conversations? Also, why entrap him? Arya could have just slit his throat at any time and so except for dramatic tension, a fake trial was not really needed. Still, sad to see one of the few morally ambiguous characters go as the show moves more and more toward conventional good versus evil.
I liked Viserion as a zombie dragon. Not sure about blue fire since he’s an ice dragon, but whatever. Of course the Wall had to come down. Like the death of a dragon, the show has been predicting it for ages. Will we get to see a battle of the dragons? I hope so!
Tyrion used to be so savvy but lately, I’m not getting a good sense that he knows what he’s doing. I also do not know why he was hiding in the shadows when Jon entered Daenerys’s bedroom and with such a look of consternation. I really do not know what that was all about.
I desperately want Brienne to survive. Somewhere during this show she has become one of my favorites.
Jaime finally (finally!) renounces Cersei. I remember back when I had hopes for his characterization.
Rumors that the final season is not returning until 2019?
What did others think of the season finale?
Maggie BoydKeymaster08/29/2017 at 7:48 pmPost count: 66
Arya killed Baelish. This was a dream for me and I was thrilled when it happened.
Jamie left Cersei. I had *hopes* for this but honestly didn’t expect it to happen till next season. Was so glad to see him get gone.
I loved two moments in the Baelish killing scene: When Sansa says, “I’m a slow learner but I do learn.” and “Sometimes I like to play a little game.” Both of those were her taking power back from someone who had worked so hard to take it from her. And I liked how she essentially told him that she had become who he made her.
Theon is a complex character for me – he was a monster in season one but the Bolton boy sure was a purification by fire for him. I liked that he stood up for his sister this episode although I’m not sure that is going to help anyone.
I still dislike the setup to the whole Arya/Sansa/Baelish situation. I couldn’t understand, perhaps I missed a scene, why the folks from the Eyrie didn’t back Baelish. I think Blackjack makes a good point re Baelish hiding under the bed. Many of the scenes where Sansa/Arya seemed at odds were played out for the audience but not for Littlefinger. It’s clear we were the ones the show runners were faking out but I find it dissatisfying because we never really see them outsmarting Littlefinger, we just have them playing to the crowd. I also felt that the scenes with Baelish/Sansa weren’t acted with any sort of tension. Littlefinger seemed a shadow of his former self at the hearing and so the victory – in spite of it coming at the hands of exactly who I wanted it to – felt hollow.
I deeply disliked being reminded of Jon/Dany relationship just as they hooked up. Took all the joy right out of it.
Blackjack mentioned this already but Tyrion doesn’t seem to know things anymore. Perhaps he needs to go back to drinking? Regardless, he gave Dany bad advice about Castelry Rock. They lost their fleet, an important ally (Olena) and could have lost the Unsullied in that moment. Now he has given her bad advice regarding Cersei.
Overall, the only episode I thought was brilliant this year was The Spoils of War. I still feel that all we are doing is moving characters around on the board. Killing Baelish even felt like they waited till he was essentially irrelevant and reduced to being a loves struck pervert bent on getting Sansa at any cost.
I am not sure Cersei’s baby is real. There is the prophecy where she has only three kids but also, it seems she reveals it only to manipulate. She used it on Tyrion and Jamie with varying results. Not sure where GoT is going with this but I find it almost annoying.
Dabney GrinnanKeymaster08/31/2017 at 12:24 pmPost count: 128
It didn’t do much for me. And waiting until March 2019–that’s nuts!
Jenna HarperParticipant08/31/2017 at 12:49 pmPost count: 16
I really enjoyed the finale. Here are some thoughts:
About Sansa/Arya/Baelish – I’m glad that Littlefinger is gone because he was such a slimey character, and given that he essentially began the terror that has been both girls’ lives, they deserved to distribute the final justice. I still think that the whole thing was handled poorly, though. The way the story was written, it seems to me that Sansa and Arya were at each other’s throats up until some point, when Sansa changed her mind and realized it was Littlefinger manipulating them. There was an interview with the actor who plays Bran and he said there was a scene that was cut where Sansa consulted with Bran. This would have been huge as far as selling this storyline.
About Jon/Dany and their hookup – this is so bittersweet for me. I’m so glad they got together, but the whole situation with Jon learning who he truly is will destroy their happiness. I worry that Dany will suspect Jon of lying to her – of knowing all along who he really was and trying to trick her. That will just piss me off.
But I’m now completely convinced that Jon is going to do die. His death will solve so many plot problems. It will remove him from contention for the throne. It will solve the incest problem. And you just know that someone has to die tragically because this is Game of Thrones, after all.
About Jaime/Cersei – so, so glad that Jaime seems to finally have a clue and has left her for good. I think she will end up killing him. I do hope he and Brienne have some great scenes together before it’s all over.
I enjoyed seeing all of the characters together in one place. Especially loved the convo between Brienne and the Hound.
Waiting until Spring of 2019 is going to be torture!
Dabney GrinnanKeymaster09/01/2017 at 9:24 amPost count: 128
You think Jamie will kill Cersei? I think he’ll kill her!
BlackjackParticipant08/31/2017 at 8:20 pmPost count: 48
I completely agree that the show made a right mess of the Littlefinger plot. I did like though that it was the three Stark children who ganged up together to get him and it was retribution for all the harm he has caused their entire family. Bran was the informant, Sansa the interrogator and Arya the executioner in a public trial. That was clever and I enjoyed that aspect.
I agree that Jon may well die, unfortunately. Romances on GoT do not fare well.
I think Jaime will not survive either. However, the show has not done well by him and he is now one of the least interesting characters for me.
Jenna HarperParticipant09/01/2017 at 7:53 pmPost count: 16
Okay, you may have already seen this, but my son showed me this video (made back in Season 5) and it is hilarious. It’s long – over 12 minutes – but full of laughs.
Check it out – we have a long way to go until Season 8 so we need stuff like this to get us through!
BlackjackParticipant09/02/2017 at 3:56 pmPost count: 48
That was fun! Kit Harrington has a nice singing voice too!
BlackjackParticipant09/03/2017 at 9:29 pmPost count: 48
Very detailed and persuasive analysis of why GoT is headed for a predictable, heroic ending. Fair to say too that the critic here is disappointed in the show since Season 5: https://www.vox.com/culture/2017/9/1/16225980/game-of-thrones-finale-ending-impossible
chrisreaderParticipant09/06/2017 at 4:43 pmPost count: 35
I’m late to the game as I was traveling but I wanted to jump in on some of the topics here.
The execution of Petyr Baelish- I also think it was clumsily written but the biggest problem was that the show had to change plots and then his character to give Sansa a borrowed storyline. In the books Littlefinger has not made one wrong step, he has Sansa hidden away in the Aerie under his protection with dyed hair pretending to be his illegitimate daughter and learning his ways. She is his prize and he is scheming the best way to advance her and really himself. The girl in the books given to Ramsey the sadist was one of Sansa’s friends who came with her from the North to King’s Landing. She wasn’t important enough to be worth anything so Baelish put her in one of his brothels after the Starks were ousted and after Arya disappeared and he needed a dark haired Northern sounding girl, pulled her out, said she was Arya and traded her off to the Boltons. All the torture and suffering was done to Jayne Pool as a fake Arya, not Sansa. Book Petyr Baelish would never throw Sansa into the unknown to be tortured. Changing the plot line and torturing Sansa necessitated making Baelish foolish instead of the human computer he is in the books. I have no doubt he will be killed by Sansa or at her demand in the books eventually (because of a prophecy that basically says so) but I am sure it will be much more subtle and surprising in its execution.
I think the biggest problem as some people have pointed out, is that Weiss and Benioff signed up to adapt the story from Martin’s books, not write it. No one every dreamed after so many years there would be no new books to draw upon. Martin gave them an outline verbally of what generally plays out but left characters stuck all,over the place in his books plus added even more in Dance with Dragons. There is a limited amount of time HBO can keep paying these actors as they get more and more famous and only so many seasons they can afford. The show has to end at some point and they are stuck with trying to wrap things up and get out of the” Meerenese Knot” Martin is still caught up in. Rather than creating whole new stories or leaving Sansa out, they borrowed a storyline that brought them a lot of backlash but got Sansa up north to get in on the action. It unfortunately took the most clever character and made him seem dumb. I firmly believe the Battle Of The Bastards will play out very differently in the books. There is no way Martin will make Jon that impetuous just to have a deus ex machina ending with the Vale riding at Sansa’s request.
One thing I find funny is that people think Jon and Daenerys are fan service but love Tormund and Brienne, when it’s quite the opposite. Jon and Daenerys have been Martin’s goal, they are the fire and the ice and the two main characters as he sees it Tormund and Brienne just took off after a bit of creative interpretation on the set and now it’s played up.
I truly enjoy the show but I think of it as its own entity from the books. Some things are better on the show like Tormund in general and his relationship with Brienne and some are worse like Jamie who left Cersei in the books LONG ago. I think it ruined his rehabilitation to stay with her so long and after she burned all those people! Once he knew what she was, after spending time with Brienne and her good influence and that she was unfaithful to him, he left her in the books. On the show he just became pathetic. He killed the mad king to save people from burning but on the show he stands by Cersei even when she is a complete monster and all their kids are dead. Like Baelish, it lessened his character I think.
Something better in the show is Davos. The show had Shireen teach him to read not a cleric like the book, which was a great choice. Also the bastard son of Robert he saved in the book wasn’t Gendry but a noble woman’s bastard by the king who led a privileged life and had other protectors who took him off in a ship with Davis’s help. Having Davos save poor Gendry who also grew up in flea bottom and bond with him and send him off in that little rowboat had much more of an emotional effect than saving some other illegitimate son of Robert’s the audience never met before. But that also meant the Brotherhood had to become villains selling poor Gendry to get him into Melisandre’s hands. In the books they don’t and retain more of their moral high ground.
I guess what I’m saying is I’m taking the good and bad from both interpretations and enjoying both.
Dabney GrinnanKeymaster09/08/2017 at 2:50 pmPost count: 128
Chrisreader, I so agree with you!
BlackjackParticipant09/14/2017 at 4:12 pmPost count: 48
HBO is going to shoot multiple endings to GoT to circumvent leaks. To take it one step further, I think it would be awesome if they pulled a Clue on this one and actually played the different variations to audiences! The SImpsons did this years ago with the “Who Shot Mr. Burns.” Maybe too cheeky for a show that takes itself so seriously though.
chrisreaderParticipant09/14/2017 at 11:49 pmPost count: 35
I think it’s a good idea to a degree but obviously they aren’t going to be able to shoot dual versions of the expensive CGI laden scenes. They will likely have multiple scripts as well and things change even during the regular season from the shooting scripts. This season a scene with Cersei waking up “in a bed of blood” presumably from a miscarriage was supposed to be the last shot of her but they obviously changed their mind even after filming it.
Other shows have done this like Gossip,Girl, Sex and City etc and I think it works when it comes down to one final big decision like Chuck or Nate with Blair or Mr. Big or Mikail Barishnikov (forget his character name). For the last scenes where main characters are likely going to die it could be a good deterrent. I know this year apart from leaked scripts early on the biggest leaks came from another country where it is supposed someone who knows the translators for the Spanish versions saw the episodes early and posted videos about what happens just a week or more before the episodes aired.
I’m not sure there is a way to stop that although they should talk to Matthew Weiner who did Mad Men. I’ve never watched a show that had less leaks about anything than that one did. I literally had no clue from one week to the next what was coming. But he also had the benefit of filming almost exclusively on sound stages and the only leaks or early pictures came from the few shots done out on locations.
BlackjackParticipant09/15/2017 at 12:54 amPost count: 48
Yeah, apparently lots of shows do this. The NYTimes just posted a list of some recent shows that have used this strategy successfully. I do remember Sex and the City had multiple endings as I remember reading that fans had spotted Chris Noth shooting final scenes in Paris. And now that you mention it, I don’t remember ever hearing of any Mad Men leaks.
chrisreaderParticipant05/14/2019 at 8:30 pmPost count: 35
I’m not sure if anyone is still checking this thread, or if anyone is left watching after the way this season has been going. I did think if any people would be feeling what I am and want to commiserate they would be hear at AAR.
It sounds quite dramatic and unlike me in general to say this, but I am heartbroken over season eight. I am someone who has read the books before and followed the show since it’s inception. I’ve defended the show at times even when they went too far with plot lines or made changes that seemed strange or nonsensical. What the show runners have done with characters and plot lines has left me dumbfounded and sad. While I can’t say this is what George R.R. Martin has plotted for the ending of the books (he has said he thinks the show will end substantially similarly to what he plans for the books) I cannot imagine it all plays out as it does on the screen.
All along GRRM has said his ending would be “bittersweet” and I would expect nothing less. Game Of Thrones has never been about “Disney” perfect endings and shows I really admired such as Mad Men wrapped their arcs up with joy and sorrow. There were happy people, sad people, disappointed people, people who earned redemption and those who didn’t. Not every character got what they deserved, but they did get a logical, well thought out ending true to who their characters had been over the many years of the show. Matthew Weiner truly loved and understood all the characters he created and it showed with the respect he paid each one.
To have Daenerys turn from the liberator of slaves, savior of Westeros with her sacrifices to fight the Night King and his army to a genocidal maniac who decides in a split second to burn thousands of innocent people alive because her boyfriend won’t kiss her and he’s more “popular” than her, was not only jarring it is sickening. It’s all too clear at this point that the man she loves, another white male hero, will kill her next week. So the two most powerful women on the show are both “Mad Queens” that must be put down like rabid animals to save Westeros.
Never mind that Tyrion is a character that murdered his father horribly in a rage and strangled his faithless lover. He was never “mad” though! He was justifiably angry! He is a calm and wonderful man whose sage advice should be heeded. Those were just random acts and not indicative of who he is.
The week before we got the joy of seeing Brienne, arguably the strongest female character with the most honor and sense of self, reduced to crying and begging Jaime not to leave her to return to his incestuous relationship.
I don’t know how the show runners missed the optics of making every person of color left on the show (Grey Worm, The Unsullied and the Dothraki) into war criminals (with only the “white guys” Jon, Tyrion and Davos not joining in the slaughter), and turning Dany into a homicidal mess during mental health awareness month. In the end it looks like some council of all white men will be running Westeros once they have purged it of crazy women and people of color.
Somehow I expected better.
Maggie BoydKeymaster05/14/2019 at 10:43 pmPost count: 66
I’m very disappointed in how Season 8 has gone. I am not completely surprised by Dany burning the city to the ground since Missandei said dracarys as her final word. She asked Dany to burn the place, Dany agreed. I am unhappy that they are setting her up to be a “Mad Queen” and not accepting that she maybe had a right to her behavior. The common people did not overthrow Cersi and wanting to surrender after supporting a vile dictator for several years doesn’t impress me all that much. War is horrible. It’s sad that so many died. I still don’t think that makes Dany a lunatic.
Ned Stark, remember him? Used to decapitate men who deserted their places on the wall. They had a job they hadn’t wanted, in a place they didn’t want to live in and he killed them for fleeing. First episode, season 1. Nobody called him crazy. Dany kills people who refuse to bend the knee? Clearly she’s a lunatic.
I did understand Dany being upset with Jon. She asked him to tell no one and the next thing she knows her entire council has heard his “secret”. She knows Sansa doesn’t want her as queen. She doubtless fears that Sansa’s whispers about Jon will turn quickly into yet another fight with the Westerosi people over the throne. She has already seen how the people of the North call him a king. After all she’s been through, is it really so awful that she doesn’t want a rebellion? Is she really so wrong to demand a bit of loyalty? Didn’t Rob Stark kill people for disloyalty, by beheading Lord Carstark? Why do the men get away with this and the woman get accused of lunacy the minute they do anything that isn’t sweetly forgiving?
I was very sad about Jamie going back to Cersei and angry that Cersei died the way she did. I wanted Dany to feed her to a dragon, Tyrion to shoot her with an arrow, anything but what I got. I was furious with the whole Brienne story line but then I had been team Tormund Giantsbane all the way. I felt he really cared for her and liked their dynamic. Jamie was too mercurial for me. The writers couldn’t decide who they wanted him to be but I see they finally decided on complete a$$ hat as the answer.
I started these books in 2000. I have been waiting to see who sits on the Iron Throne for close to two decades and now that the moment is upon me, I’m sad rather than excited. I don’t want a man on that throne. I would have no trouble with it if it weren’t for the fact that it came down to two women years ago and now suddenly, out of nowhere, it looks like a white guy will be king. I’ll watch next week but seriously, this sucks.
Maggie BoydKeymaster05/15/2019 at 9:38 amPost count: 66
Loved this from the Mary Sue regarding Brienne of Tarth: Women do not need sex to make us fully-fleshed people and we don’t need a trumpeted losing of virginity (and subsequent betrayal) to give us emotional depth. Brienne of Tarth was so much more than her sexuality, and the relationship she built with Jaime Lannister should have been enough to have her ask him to stay, knowing he’d be walking into his death, without the outdated sexual dynamics first.://www.themarysue.com/virginity-and-brienne-of-tarth/
chrisreaderParticipant05/28/2019 at 6:00 pmPost count: 35
As a book reader as well I’m truly sad at how Jaime and Brienne’s relationship ended up. After the glorious high of seeing him knight her as Ser Brienne (an honor she above all the people in Westeros truly deserved) to that cliched farewell just a couple of episodes later was a real low point.
I knew the show runners were up to something when they conspicuously did not include the “valonquar” prophecy from the books in the show a few seasons back. I suspect GRRM plans Cersei’s end quite differently and with a lot more logic. Many careful book readers even believe that GRRM has seeded clues that Jaime and Brienne may even marry in the books -worked into the many prophetic dreams the two have had. I can’t say if that is correct, but it is fair to say that the two have a very rich and complex relationship and that the two actors who play them did an outstanding job of conveying their feelings in every scene, particularly in the ones where they don’t say anything. I wasn’t surprised to see in interviews that they were not greatly enthused about how things turn out for their relationship.
I have no problem with female characters having romance or a love life, in fact I think it can be quite sexist when they don’t. For example I’ve seen so many people before the season starting saying things like “Arya is too traumatized to have a relationship, she’s just DAMAGED” while fully expecting Jon (who was literally brought back from the dead) to of course have a full and satisfying love life and relationship.
I would have truly enjoyed seeing Brienne and Jaime together as respectful partners and true equals and the way he wanted to fight under her command and at her side gave me real hope that they might be the one happy ending to come out of the whole saga. What I didn’t want was Brienne to be shattered and weeping when Jaime threw her over to return to his homicidal sister. We’ve never seen Brienne like that, no matter what situation she faced be it a bear with a wooden sword, the contempt of men, or the army of the dead. She’s strong, capable and one of the few characters with a real sense of self and self worth. It made me angry to see the one thing that can “break” her be her boyfriend jilting her.
The show runners seem to think that to be truly “strong” a character must be alone as that’s how they left all the Starks and the main characters. We don’t even see if Davos talks to or makes it back to the wife he left behind umpteen seasons ago.
Arya is too “independent” to want her family or a relationship as she sets off for lands west. Sansa is Queen in The North without consort, family or close friends. Jon at least has his direwolf, Tormund and the Freefolk to keep him company. ( The writers had even wanted Ser Jorah to survive initially so he could be seen leaving the wall with Jon and his merry band at the end but realized there was no situation where they could have Dany put down as a mad Queen and Jorah still be alive.) It’s not hard to imagine Jon with another love someday despite the supposed strictures of the Nights Watch (particularly with his sister and brother Queen and King of the North and The Six Kingdoms). But Brienne will be the stalwart head of the unmarried Kingsguard writing Jaimes bowdlerized deeds in the great book, Arya will explore alone and Sansa will rule The North on her celibate throne.
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