Home Forums After Hours Game of Thrones Season 7 *Spoilers Included* Thread

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  • Dabney Grinnan
    Keymaster
    Post count: 89

    I read that and wondered what that meant. Still doesn’t work for me!

    Dabney Grinnan
    Keymaster
    Post count: 89

    No no no no! You’re exactly the right viewer for the show for you! One of the things that makes GoT so fun is that there’s a world for everyone. It’s not that you’re easy–it’s that you care about different things. And that’s great! And, for what it’s worth, my 21 yo daughter told me I was out of my mind for not liking Dany/Jon and that I was “being negative as usual.” ;)

    Maggie Boyd
    Keymaster
    Post count: 68

    Jon and Dany don’t ick me out. The foreshadowing on this, with the refrain of brother/sister relationships from the Targaryen history, has me well prepared for the possibility. :-) I do think the books hinted heavily at this match up and I’ve actually been expecting them to get together for the last decade or so. In the books, if I remember right, Dany’s brother had hinted that she was more on loan to Drogo than married to him because it had been his plan to use the Dothraki and then take his sister to wife. That’s one of the things I love about sci-fi/fantasy. It forces you to re-examine the unacceptable. :-)

    I’m completely traumatized by the death of Viserion. No excuse for that GoT! Now the freaking Night King has a dragon mount.

    I think the show has made a mistake in not showing us more of a review of the Sansa/Arya relationship. It seemed so fitting to me that their relationship be fraught with tension since the last time they were together was season one and they most definitely didn’t get along back then. For Arya, coming back to find Sansa the Lady of Winterfell, was a confirmation of all the worst things she has ever thought about her sister. She will not let her be queen if she can help it. Hopefully, they will figure out soon who the real enemy is because honest to God, I want Baelish dead. I want Arya or Sansa to do it.

    Also, does anyone else think it possible that Sansa isn’t a Stark? She looks like Caetlyn according to the books/shows and there is nothing very Stark like in her behavior or demeanor. And if anyone is capable of pulling a Donkey Skin it’s Baelish. He’d always been obsessed with the mother, if he seduced her and produced Sansa I can totally see that disgusting toad getting off on being with his daughter that so looks like her mother.

    Blackjack
    Participant
    Post count: 50

    Yeah, I agree the Sansa/Arya relationship is a bit of a puzzle and the show has not done enough to clarify the undercurrents, but I say that as a viewer of the show rather than a reader of the books. I interpreted their first season relationship more in terms of sisterly spats and some jealousy but not deep antagonism. I’m finding it difficult to figure out why Arya feels so much contempt for Sansa. I especially did not care for Arya’s inability to discuss Sansa’s history. As viewers we know all that Sansa has been through and it just seems cruel at the moment for Arya to be so dismissive.

    I don’t feel icked by the Daenerys & Jon relationship. I do though feel concerned, if that’s the right word, that Daenerys is invested in ruling out of selfish reasons of self-aggrandizement, and in recent episodes her behavior has see-sawed between arrogant to potentially monstrous. If we’re supposed to read Tyrion’s expressions correctly, I think we’re asked to feel concerned. I want to see what the show does with all of this. I also do not think the show has done that much to set up a romance, and so in this respect, I just don’t feel much excitement about it – yet anyway.

    I also want to say that days after the show aired, I still feel such sadness about the death of the dragon and sad too for Daenerys’s loss. As usual for me, the death of animals is very painful. I hated when the dire wolves were destroyed too.

    Maggie Boyd
    Keymaster
    Post count: 68

    I feel horrible about the dragon. :-( and the wolves. They all gave their lives for causes that weren’t theirs; it seems unfair.

    I really, sincerely hope that GoT show runners start to make the deaths meaningful rather than gratuitous. Next week has me very worried for the Unsullied; they better not kill Greyworm just for emotional manipulation purposes. I feel the same about Gendry – is he back just so I can cry at this death?

    According to everything I’ve read season 8 will be only 6 or 7 episodes long. We have only one episode left this season. While we’ve had the long awaited meeting of Dany and John, the reunion of the remaining Starks at Winterfell, the return of Ser Jorah and the return of Gendry I feel that all we’ve done this season is another move of the players in this game. I want the last season to be truly different and deliver a satisfying ending. I don’t want the last scene to be someone sitting down on the Iron Throne, indicating the game is finally over. I want a bit more pay off than that. :-)

    chrisreader
    Participant
    Post count: 8

    I think the show runners have handled the Arya and Sansa relationship pretty clumsily (it’s like my worst complaint about a romance novel- one conversation with any two of the Stark siblings would clear everything up) but I think also the show and people have forgotten their history,

    The show keeps harping on Arya seeing Sansa in a “pretty dress with pretty hair” when Ned was executed but the real strain between the sisters doesn’t stem from that and is very understandable from Arya’s perspective.
    Sansa flat out lied about what happened with Arya, Joffrey, Nymeria and Micah the butcher’s boy in season one. Sansa didn’t want Joffrey not to like her so she lied and betrayed Arya (which endangered Arya’s life as crazy Cersei would have hurt her and wanted to if Ned hadn’t intervened). It backfired on Sansa because it ended up costing the life of her Direwolf Lady instead of Nymeria, Arya’s Direwolf (and Arya lost her by having to reject her and chase her away to save her life). Worse than anything, it cost the life of Micah, Arya’s friend who Joffrey sent the Hound to hunt down and murder. It’s something that never bothered Sansa because the lives of servants meant nothing to her and she saw herself as the wounded party, but she never blamed Joffrey for attacking Arya and Micah and lying about it or Cersei for being so cruel, she blamed Arya.

    This was Arya’s first taste of Sansa lying and betraying her family to get what she wanted. It wasn’t a just a petty sisterly squabble it cost Arya the life of her friend and really showed who Sansa was. It’s not crazy for Arya to think that years back Sansa might betray their father for her beloved Joffrey. The show has done a lot to try to rehabilitate the character of Sansa and left out a lot of stuff from the books because the writers felt the audience would just hate Sansa if she did what she did in the books and ran to Cersei with Ned’s plans. Betraying the Starks yet again, keeping her and Arya from escaping King’s Landing as Ned planned and even costing Ned his life and honor as he agreed to lie and beg forgiveness because he was trying to spare his daughters.

    Sansa always resented Jon as Catelyn did, and was cruel and dismissive towards him. It’s not crazy for Arya (who hasn’t seen Sansa in years) to imagine she resents Jon, a bastard, being named King In The North.

    So there are good reasons for Arya to distrust Sansa, but for some reason the show doesn’t want to present them. I think it’s because they have rehabilitated Sansa, given her a different storyline and don’t want Arya’s grievances to be real so that the audience will still like Sansa and forget about the awful things she has done. They can have a happy reconciliation in episode 7 without Arya saying “remember when you helped Joffrey essentially murder that young friend of mine and you never regretted it or cared about it”.

    Blackjack
    Participant
    Post count: 50

    I think the show has been quite kind to Sansa and given all she has been through, the audience has sympathy for her. Season 1 was years ago and therefore there is much distance between the conflict between the two sisters and where they’re at now. And at the time Arya and Sansa both seemed not much more than children, which mitigated much of the harm Sansa caused. I also viewed Sansa as inadvertently causing a chain of events. Cersei and Joffrey clearly were of a different beast than Sansa. Sansa unknowingly set herself up to be virtually imprisoned and mistreated, which put her in the position of being a victim of the Lannisters rather than in collusion with them. So, just from my perspective as a casual viewer rather than reader, Sansa is not anywhere near a villain and the conflict from Season 1 just doesn’t stand out to me as a reason for Arya and Sansa to be at odds now.

    Jenna Harper
    Participant
    Post count: 16

    My issue with the Sansa/Arya situation is that, after all these girls have gone through, their rift is beyond petty. Without any solid proof whatsoever, Arya is accusing Sansa of trying to oust Jon and grab power. It’s as if the writers of the show know that there is no good reason for the sisters to be so hostile to each other so they are manufacturing conflict.

    I don’t believe that Arya would hold such deep grudges against Sansa based on childhood rivalries. As far as what happened with Joffrey and Micah and all of that, I think Arya has matured enough to understand that things aren’t so black and white. Ned even try to explain to her why Sansa was in an impossible situation – that for Sansa to go in front of the King and Queen and call their son (and her future husband) a liar was simply not reasonable to expect. I do agree that this whole thing reeks of the Big Misunderstanding, where if Sansa and Arya were to sit down and tell each other about all that they have gone through, each would have a completely different and sympathetic vision of the other.

    Too, Arya’s character is being assassinated (no pun intended!). She’s gone from a wronged party with a list of people who rightly deserve justice to a psycho paranoid. I’m sure that after all she’s gone through and being trained as an assassin, Arya would have her fair share of issues. But the Faceless Men was not a group that engaged in brutal violence for the sake of intimidating people or as a threat, thus the philosophy they would have imparted is not what Arya is now personifying. She’s acting unhinged, not like a girl with a legitimate grievance.

    I keep holding out hope that we are only seeing a tiny piece of a puzzle that will pan out by the end of the season to reveal a complete picture that makes more sense. In which case, then I fault the writers for leaving the viewers in the dark about Sansa and Arya’s true intentions as a manipulation to try to wring out some kind of drama or big reveal. They aren’t playing by the rules of the game. Instead of laying the groundwork for a long con, which we should all be included in, they are instead giving us unreliable narrators and pulling bait and switches that just aren’t fair.

    Maggie Boyd
    Keymaster
    Post count: 68

    I don’t think Arya’s point is petty at all. She didn’t just see Sansa with Joffrey at her father’s execution. She knew that Sansa had given Joffrey and Cersei information that had led to Ned’s death. There have been a host of betrayals from Sansa, not least of which was the fact that she didn’t see the warning signs of who/what Cersei and Joffrey were until after they had started abusing her personally. When Joffrey was acting like a nightmare to everyone else, when Arya, Ned et al were seeing him for who he was Sansa was still being a starry eyed child over the whole thing. Arya, many years her junior, was far more clear sighted. Given that Sansa actually blundered into getting their father killed it is no wonder that Arya questions her fitness to rule now. Additionally, Sansa did all she did because she wanted to be queen. Now Arya comes home and finds Sansa once more hanging out with a dangerous enemy (Baelish) and listening to complaints about the family (session where people were complaining about Jon) and parading about as the Lady of Winterfell. She is right to be wary. Sansa was a petty child, it is natural for Arya to wonder if she is still that person.

    That said, it has been years since season one when the two characters were last together. It makes total sense for the two of them to revert to their previous relationship and for them to have all the old problems between them but it makes zero sense for the show runners to expect the audience to be in the same place. We see each of them for who they are now, they see each other as who they were before. It’s on the writers to provide the viewers with scenes that either explain that gap or bridge it and they aren’t doing that as of right now. We’re running out of episodes and I’m growing concerned that we seem to be sort of spinning in old problems rather than resolving them and moving forward.

    Jenna Harper
    Participant
    Post count: 16

    What information did Sansa give to Joffrey and Cersei that led to Ned’s death? At least as far as the show as concerned, I don’t recall any specifics – can you refresh my memory? And as far as her wanting to be Queen, I got the impression more that she wanted the glamour aspect of being queen – being married to a handsome prince and wearing fancy gowns and being the belle of King’s Landing society. Not so much that Sansa wanted power that she would get as the queen. I think that Sansa’s experience have changed her substantially, and now she does crave actual power. But as for her younger self’s desires, I didn’t get that read.

    Maggie Boyd
    Keymaster
    Post count: 68

    To answer any of this, I need to go back and watch Season 1 but she shared something that Ned was doing with Joffrey that tipped him off to one of Ned’s plans. In the book it was much more pronounced – there she told Joffrey that they were leaving King’s Landing, which resulted in them getting captured and killed but in the series it was much more subtle. I can’t remember it as well because I haven’t seen it in a few years. I’m planning to re-watch the seasons over the course of our next year long wait so I am really into the swing of things when we finally get to season 8!

    As far as the craving for power, I sure thought that was captured by the series and not just the books but I’ll watch out for that when I re-view season one. This could be one of those Harry Potter moments – where everything is clear if you’ve read the books but you’re sort of left guessing if you haven’t. Certainly for me Arya and Sansa’s relationship looks like a more adult version of what it has always been but perhaps that is being influenced by what I’ve read over what I’ve seen. I won’t be sure till I take a second look at everything.

    Jenna Harper
    Participant
    Post count: 16

    I rewatched the episode, and a couple of things from the scene at the end with Dany and Jon stuck out for me.

    Firstly, Jon is the first person that Dany has really allowed herself to be vulnerable around. I’m trying to recall when else in the series Dany has actually shed tears, and the only times I can remember are when she’s raped by Drogo on her wedding night and when Drogo and her baby son die. Otherwise, I always recall Dany being very strong and stoic no matter what she’s facing. Even her telling Jon that she hopes she deserves his people’s admiration and respect, she’s admitting uncertainty for probably the first time I can ever remember. I think that’s really telling. Compare, for example, how she is around Tyrion vs. how she is around Jon, and she’s known and trusted Tyrion for much longer.

    Also, I’m probably slow on the uptake, but I thought that Kit and Emelia did a great job expressing feelings without saying anything. Jon is gazing at Dany deeply, Dany tries to pull her hand out of his but he tightens his grip slightly, she realizes that what Tyrion had told her about Jon falling in love with her might be true, she’s shy about her own feelings, the intensity of his gaze increases before he lets her hand go. It was so subtle but really effective. And Jon’s look reminded me so much of The Look!

    The Look

    Maggie Boyd
    Keymaster
    Post count: 68

    Just to clarify – Sansa wasn’t power hungry. She wanted to be a princess – to have people think her special and treat her special, but as a child she wasn’t anxious to accumulate power for the sake of ruling people. She was pretentious more than anything else.

    Blackjack
    Participant
    Post count: 50

    I think I agree that Sansa from Season 1 was pretentious. However, a girl wanting to be a princess is not exactly the stuff of villains, even in GoT. Wanting to marry a prince too seems fairly standard romance trope territory. I don’t remember Sansa getting her father into trouble, but if she did, it was never vindictive since my recollection is that she loved her father?

    As a quick aside, I briefly saw an article title from Vanity Fair, I think, yesterday in which the author theorized that Arya is playing Littlefinger and that the feud with Sansa is fabricated for show to trick him. Not sure if that pans out but it strikes me as badly handled by writers if that turns out to be the case since Sansa and Arya’s recent feuds have been in private mostly.

    Jenna Harper
    Participant
    Post count: 16

    @Blackjack, totally agree with you if it is the case that Arya is just setting up Littlefinger, that it’s being poorly handled by the writers. In such a case, they are keeping us viewers too much in the dark in order to pull of some Big Twist, and instead of coming as a neat surprise, it just makes us feel tricked. You can’t completely assassinate the character of a key player only to come back and say “Just kidding, she was faking it!”

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