Desert Isle Keeper

So sad! It’s more a man’s world than ever, isn’t it? Women have succeeded in becoming as vulgar, career driven, and promiscuous as men—supposedly everything they hated about them or were maybe jealous of. Speaking as a woman who is not a feminist and is tired of the hard core feminist speaking for her, I’m disgusted. We live a culture where modesty has died, there is no mystery about a woman for a man to admire anymore, it’s all out there like meat on a market. Women can go on fooling themselves but men do not respect us anymore and with mostly good reason. I respect few women myself anymore. They fought hard to kill their babies, as a matter of fact, they act like they are not empowered unless they can kill their babies and for that we are paying with broken homes, broken children, and all sorts of perverse and unnatural sexual acts becoming mainstream. Women may want marriage but they will not get it because as they say, “”Why buy the cow when the milk is free.”” Heck, if I were a man I wouldn’t marry a woman who was giving me everything I wanted without the responsibility. Yep, we don’t need men to denigrate women, the success is all our own. There has been no liberation, there has only been slavery to vice. Sounds like something to be proud of! I once heard a man say to another, “”There are women you marry and women you sleep with.”” Seems like the ones they sleep with are winning. I know my comments will not be popular but the truth hardly ever is.

So sad! It’s more a man’s world than ever, isn’t it? Women have succeeded in becoming as vulgar, career driven, and promiscuous as men—supposedly everything they hated about them or were maybe jealous of. Speaking as a woman who is not a feminist and is tired of the hard core feminist speaking for her, I’m disgusted. We live a culture where modesty has died, there is no mystery about a woman for a man to admire anymore, it’s all out there like meat on a market. Women can go on fooling themselves but men do not respect us anymore and with mostly good reason. I respect few women myself anymore. They fought hard to kill their babies, as a matter of fact, they act like they are not empowered unless they can kill their babies and for that we are paying with broken homes, broken children, and all sorts of perverse and unnatural sexual acts becoming mainstream. Women may want marriage but they will not get it because as they say, “”Why buy the cow when the milk is free.”” Heck, if I were a man I wouldn’t marry a woman who was giving me everything I wanted without the responsibility. Yep, we don’t need men to denigrate women, the success is all our own. There has been no liberation, there has only been slavery to vice. Sounds like something to be proud of! I once heard a man say to another, “”There are women you marry and women you sleep with.”” Seems like the ones they sleep with are winning. I know my comments will not be popular but the truth hardly ever is.

Very sad and very true. By the way, it’s Sex AND the City, not Sex IN the City.

Very sad and very true. By the way, it’s Sex AND the City, not Sex IN the City.

Leonard Sax wrote a book a few years back called Why Gender Matters. It’s a book for parents and educators about how our education system (and society) have failed our children by trying to wipe out the gender differences in the way we raise and educate them. The book is enlightening in many ways, one of which was about how males enter society and how that differs from females. Females tend to make connections and gather support groups: from family, co-workers, and friends. Women build society through connections. Even as small children females interact, while boys engage in parallel play. Throughout the ages, men have been connected to society, civilized as it were, through their connection to the women in their lives (and much of that through the sexual relationship). Sax noted that the breakdown of even the *pretense* of a commitment before sexual involvement has hurt young men as much or *more* than it has hurt the young women. Easy sex means no connection, and when we don’t train out young men (as teens) to connect with society through their relationships, we can be setting them up not to be able to form the healthy connections that lead to commitment. In other words, when women allow men to have easy, commitment-free access to sex, we undermine the male’s ability to see the importance of that commitment, for himself and society as a whole.

Women, starting with teens, are shooting themselves in the foot multiple ways. By being everything they didn’t like in men, men don’t really want them for anything other than sex. Plus, by allowing for years of commitment-free sex, they may have robbed both themselves and the men in their lives of the possibility of “”forever.””

Carrie- 26 years and five children into her HEA

Leonard Sax wrote a book a few years back called Why Gender Matters. It’s a book for parents and educators about how our education system (and society) have failed our children by trying to wipe out the gender differences in the way we raise and educate them. The book is enlightening in many ways, one of which was about how males enter society and how that differs from females. Females tend to make connections and gather support groups: from family, co-workers, and friends. Women build society through connections. Even as small children females interact, while boys engage in parallel play. Throughout the ages, men have been connected to society, civilized as it were, through their connection to the women in their lives (and much of that through the sexual relationship). Sax noted that the breakdown of even the *pretense* of a commitment before sexual involvement has hurt young men as much or *more* than it has hurt the young women. Easy sex means no connection, and when we don’t train out young men (as teens) to connect with society through their relationships, we can be setting them up not to be able to form the healthy connections that lead to commitment. In other words, when women allow men to have easy, commitment-free access to sex, we undermine the male’s ability to see the importance of that commitment, for himself and society as a whole.

Women, starting with teens, are shooting themselves in the foot multiple ways. By being everything they didn’t like in men, men don’t really want them for anything other than sex. Plus, by allowing for years of commitment-free sex, they may have robbed both themselves and the men in their lives of the possibility of “”forever.””

Carrie- 26 years and five children into her HEA

Wow. What a depressing picture of the world my going-to-be-a-teen daughter and young son have to grow into. It’s sad that in pursuing equality, women have placed themselves in the position of victims – victims of predator alpha-males looking only for a quick, commitment free roll in the hay and then victims of their own age and declining desirability when it comes to finding a husband and settling down. And how shameful that SOME men have used the fact that women want to experience a level of sexual freedom in order to become so misogynistic and hateful toward women. Too, it seems that yet again, women are left holding the responsibility for the current situation despite the fact that as far as sex, marriage and relationships go, it takes two to tango. Men need to own their part in all of this and grow up, just as women need to take a good long look at what they really want in the long term and show some respect for themselves if they hope to get it from others.

What really strikes me in all of this, however, is that as a society it seems we are further embracing a “”me”” attitude that completely ignores treating other people with respect and kindness. I have no problem with young people wanting to experience and express their sexuality in ways that don’t involve commitment as long as they are being responsible about unwanted pregnancies and diseases, but there is such an underlying nastiness about the way they all seem to go about it. Even the phrase “”pump and dump”” indicates an intention to cause another person some form of emotional pain rather than just engaging in a recreational activity that could potentially be pleasurable for all parties involved. It’s sad that this new freedom can’t be enjoyed by both sexes without one being the “”winner”” at the expense of the other.

Wow. What a depressing picture of the world my going-to-be-a-teen daughter and young son have to grow into. It’s sad that in pursuing equality, women have placed themselves in the position of victims – victims of predator alpha-males looking only for a quick, commitment free roll in the hay and then victims of their own age and declining desirability when it comes to finding a husband and settling down. And how shameful that SOME men have used the fact that women want to experience a level of sexual freedom in order to become so misogynistic and hateful toward women. Too, it seems that yet again, women are left holding the responsibility for the current situation despite the fact that as far as sex, marriage and relationships go, it takes two to tango. Men need to own their part in all of this and grow up, just as women need to take a good long look at what they really want in the long term and show some respect for themselves if they hope to get it from others.

What really strikes me in all of this, however, is that as a society it seems we are further embracing a “”me”” attitude that completely ignores treating other people with respect and kindness. I have no problem with young people wanting to experience and express their sexuality in ways that don’t involve commitment as long as they are being responsible about unwanted pregnancies and diseases, but there is such an underlying nastiness about the way they all seem to go about it. Even the phrase “”pump and dump”” indicates an intention to cause another person some form of emotional pain rather than just engaging in a recreational activity that could potentially be pleasurable for all parties involved. It’s sad that this new freedom can’t be enjoyed by both sexes without one being the “”winner”” at the expense of the other.

Come now, you’re really assuming that all any man wants is a hot body? Ever? And that our only asset as women is our body (as “”pure”” as possible?)? Always? How very sad. And how very insulting to both men and women.

To me this whole “”game”” thing seems more like wishful thinking; the ultimate (young?) male fantasy. Not that unlike the ultimate (?) female fantasy of finding “”the One””. The ONLY One. Also, in my experience, men (especially younger men) really like to exaggerate their success with the ladies. Combine these, and I have serious doubts about the level of importance the basic asumptions you’re making here have in the real world. The adult world. (I’m not an American, but this kind of talk from some men seems pretty popular on European sites as well.)

Life to me seems much too messy and complicated to fit into these kinds of game theories, though they do seem to be everywhere these days in the “”dating pop culture””. Maybe even more prominent in the internet dating culture, which I’m not that well acquainted with.

I feel that life tends to teach us that the dreaded “”settling”” might just have more to do with different/shifting priorities and better self knowledge than giving up your standards or dreams or something. Besides, men grow old too, and games get tiring after a while.

If you really want to be happy in life, learn to know yourself first. Learn to love yourself first. Learn to change your priorities as you go first. And then go after the Mr. Big of your dreams if that’s still what you want. I hear they’re mad about self-assured, self-confident women with high self-esteem. Age is more negotiable.

BTW. I don’t get the popularity of the Sex and the City either. I could never figure out what was so very appealing about Mr. Big. (Aside the fact that he was “”big””.) He seemed so immature to me. On the other had so did Carrie – maybe they really were made for each other. ;)

Come now, you’re really assuming that all any man wants is a hot body? Ever? And that our only asset as women is our body (as “”pure”” as possible?)? Always? How very sad. And how very insulting to both men and women.

To me this whole “”game”” thing seems more like wishful thinking; the ultimate (young?) male fantasy. Not that unlike the ultimate (?) female fantasy of finding “”the One””. The ONLY One. Also, in my experience, men (especially younger men) really like to exaggerate their success with the ladies. Combine these, and I have serious doubts about the level of importance the basic asumptions you’re making here have in the real world. The adult world. (I’m not an American, but this kind of talk from some men seems pretty popular on European sites as well.)

Life to me seems much too messy and complicated to fit into these kinds of game theories, though they do seem to be everywhere these days in the “”dating pop culture””. Maybe even more prominent in the internet dating culture, which I’m not that well acquainted with.

I feel that life tends to teach us that the dreaded “”settling”” might just have more to do with different/shifting priorities and better self knowledge than giving up your standards or dreams or something. Besides, men grow old too, and games get tiring after a while.

If you really want to be happy in life, learn to know yourself first. Learn to love yourself first. Learn to change your priorities as you go first. And then go after the Mr. Big of your dreams if that’s still what you want. I hear they’re mad about self-assured, self-confident women with high self-esteem. Age is more negotiable.

BTW. I don’t get the popularity of the Sex and the City either. I could never figure out what was so very appealing about Mr. Big. (Aside the fact that he was “”big””.) He seemed so immature to me. On the other had so did Carrie – maybe they really were made for each other. ;)

This is a very limited world view that applies to only a percentage of people. There are many ways to live in this world and many kinds of people in it.

I thought that article was messed up when I read it and I’m disgusted that it’s made it into book form. People who concentrate on some bizarre list of qualifications in a mate instead of love deserve what they get.

BTW, I’m an extremely imperfect woman by societal standards, happily married for almost twenty years.

This is a very limited world view that applies to only a percentage of people. There are many ways to live in this world and many kinds of people in it.

I thought that article was messed up when I read it and I’m disgusted that it’s made it into book form. People who concentrate on some bizarre list of qualifications in a mate instead of love deserve what they get.

BTW, I’m an extremely imperfect woman by societal standards, happily married for almost twenty years.

I think men and women are first and foremost human beings. Human beings are social animals and, as such, they need what all social animals need – a sense of belonging, a position of security within a group. In our modern Western society, that position is a stable emotional and sexual relationship that is accepted and embraced by family and close friends.

We invent lots of stereotypes about what men and women are thinking or doing, especially young men and women and especially when we are not young ourselves. But the truth is most people in our society get married. According to government statistics, there is an 80% chance that men and women will have married by age 40. It varies some by income, (poor people marry less), race and sex (90% of non-Hispanic white women will have married by age 40 compared with 63% of non-Hispanic black women.)

It is probably safe to say that many young men under the age of say, 25, are very concerned about “”bragging rights”” with their friends and so will tend not to date women whose looks they can’t boast about. But, as they mature and seek out a partner with whom to bond, its clear most men start using other criteria.

I think its untrue and unfair to imply that men only get married so that they can have sex with a woman. Sexual mores have changed quite a bit over the last fifty years and its a lot easier for both women and men to have sex without being married. And still most people are getting married.

I think men and women are first and foremost human beings. Human beings are social animals and, as such, they need what all social animals need – a sense of belonging, a position of security within a group. In our modern Western society, that position is a stable emotional and sexual relationship that is accepted and embraced by family and close friends.

We invent lots of stereotypes about what men and women are thinking or doing, especially young men and women and especially when we are not young ourselves. But the truth is most people in our society get married. According to government statistics, there is an 80% chance that men and women will have married by age 40. It varies some by income, (poor people marry less), race and sex (90% of non-Hispanic white women will have married by age 40 compared with 63% of non-Hispanic black women.)

It is probably safe to say that many young men under the age of say, 25, are very concerned about “”bragging rights”” with their friends and so will tend not to date women whose looks they can’t boast about. But, as they mature and seek out a partner with whom to bond, its clear most men start using other criteria.

I think its untrue and unfair to imply that men only get married so that they can have sex with a woman. Sexual mores have changed quite a bit over the last fifty years and its a lot easier for both women and men to have sex without being married. And still most people are getting married.

I am 60 years old. When I was 23 and looking for an apartment with my soon to be husband, I was told that my salary coun’t be counted as income since I might get pregnant and then, of course, I would quit my job and stay at home with the kids(s). I live in Texas, where until the 1980s a woman could be governor but could not own land outright in her own name. Somehow the term feminist, which I have always taken to mean a woman who believes in her abilities and intelligence, and who believes that women should be equals to men and not 2nd class citizens, somehow this term is a dirty word. Maybe the people who post here are younger than my now 60 years and take all of the rights they have for granted. I certainly don’t because I have experienced sexual discrimination firsthand.

Young men are opportunists. This is nothing new. Guides to seducing women are as old as history and if you read romance you know about rakes. Young women can choose to sleep around or not. Hopefully they will make better choices with maturity, but it is not my place to judge them.

I must disagree radically with some of the comments to this post made previously. Your “”truth”” like mine is subjective and is colored by your experiences. Me, I’d rather be happy than “”right””.

I am a feminist and I read romance novels.

I am 60 years old. When I was 23 and looking for an apartment with my soon to be husband, I was told that my salary coun’t be counted as income since I might get pregnant and then, of course, I would quit my job and stay at home with the kids(s). I live in Texas, where until the 1980s a woman could be governor but could not own land outright in her own name. Somehow the term feminist, which I have always taken to mean a woman who believes in her abilities and intelligence, and who believes that women should be equals to men and not 2nd class citizens, somehow this term is a dirty word. Maybe the people who post here are younger than my now 60 years and take all of the rights they have for granted. I certainly don’t because I have experienced sexual discrimination firsthand.

Young men are opportunists. This is nothing new. Guides to seducing women are as old as history and if you read romance you know about rakes. Young women can choose to sleep around or not. Hopefully they will make better choices with maturity, but it is not my place to judge them.

I must disagree radically with some of the comments to this post made previously. Your “”truth”” like mine is subjective and is colored by your experiences. Me, I’d rather be happy than “”right””.

I am a feminist and I read romance novels.

This presumes women (with brains) actually want “”high status guys”” who don’t “”compromise”” or who are into the “”Game”” and pump-dumping in the first place. Seriously. WHY would I ever want that kind of human being as my life partner? Why would I want to combine my DNA with his to create children? It’s not like he’ll get better or smarter when he gets older. He’ll just be more of a tool.

This presumes women (with brains) actually want “”high status guys”” who don’t “”compromise”” or who are into the “”Game”” and pump-dumping in the first place. Seriously. WHY would I ever want that kind of human being as my life partner? Why would I want to combine my DNA with his to create children? It’s not like he’ll get better or smarter when he gets older. He’ll just be more of a tool.

Like you, mdegraffen, I’m a feminist and I read romance. While my experience hasn’t been as appalling as yours, I remember the days when it was normal in an interview to ask the female candidate what she planned to do if she married and got pregnant. It’s an insult to ask anyone that, and these days, thankfully, it’s illegal. Way to go, Rachel. Insulting men and women in the same article. I first married when I was 19. Disastrous. Neither of us were ready, and yes, I was young and nubile, and yes, I married wealthy. That marriage taught me never to rely on anyone else for my future. It was, and is, mine. I realized it wasn’t fair to me or to the man. Why should he take the responsibility for me? I lived with my now husband for 10 years before we married. Yes, shock, horror, once I’d “given it up,” he still wanted me, because he wasn’t just after the hot body. We’re still happy, still in love, and from what I can gather, the way I met and married him is the norm for a woman today, not the exception. I had a great career, I could put my half of the finances into the house we bought together, and we made the decision to have children jointly. Women shouldn’t look to their husbands for their status or for their happiness. They need to learn to be themselves, to give themselves what life has to offer. As should men. It took my female foremothers several hundred years to gain that right, and I respect the women who went before me to fight for it. I have been known to vote, not because I feel strongly about a particular candidate, but because brave women died and suffered to give me that right. And since Maria brought it up, that goes for abortions, too. If I need one, I’ll get one. It’s none of your business. As it happens, having another child would probably kill me and if my doctor didn’t have the right to offer me a termination, I’d probably die from the experience. And to assume that men are only after one thing? Do you know how insulting that is? Men have aspirations and ideals, too. As if men—real men—only want arm candy. Only immature dickheads look at women as objects to “pump and dump,” and to be honest, most women, after a couple of encounters like that, know the type and avoid them. Or they join in on the game. If you don’t want to watch, don’t look. Draw the lace curtains and turn your back. Most men are looking for someone to talk to as well as someone to take to bed. The ones who are looking for trophies aren’t the ones that interest me, and are certainly not the ones I want to see as the ‘hero’ of any romance I read. In order to talk to a high-achieving man a woman needs some self assurance and some education. More than how to rustle up a cordon bleu dinner. I wonder, do you watch “Mad Men” with a sense of nostalgia for the good old days? As for dirtbags like Roisy, I’d bet he’s making it up as he goes along. I found the column amusing but not very realistic. If he is for real, he needs exposing. A target on his back should do it. Sex. I love it, absolutely love it. These days I confine myself to the one partner, but why should I be ashamed of enjoying a human activity that is cheap and doesn’t hurt anyone else? I revel in the freedom to try something different or new, enjoy being able to dress sexy without automatically being labeled a “tart.” I love discussing it, and I love reading novels that don’t stop at the bedroom door. If you don’t, then good for you, I will fight for your right to continue to read gentler, sweet romances, but I would really love it if you would fight for my right to read something a bit raunchier in return. Nobody is setting it on the curriculum, you don’t have to read it, but a bit of live and let live would be nice. A woman who wants a dominant man hasn’t found her own mojo yet, hasn’t felt how plain good it is to have a partner rather than an object on the other side of the bed, how good it… Read more »

Like you, mdegraffen, I’m a feminist and I read romance. While my experience hasn’t been as appalling as yours, I remember the days when it was normal in an interview to ask the female candidate what she planned to do if she married and got pregnant. It’s an insult to ask anyone that, and these days, thankfully, it’s illegal. Way to go, Rachel. Insulting men and women in the same article. I first married when I was 19. Disastrous. Neither of us were ready, and yes, I was young and nubile, and yes, I married wealthy. That marriage taught me never to rely on anyone else for my future. It was, and is, mine. I realized it wasn’t fair to me or to the man. Why should he take the responsibility for me? I lived with my now husband for 10 years before we married. Yes, shock, horror, once I’d “given it up,” he still wanted me, because he wasn’t just after the hot body. We’re still happy, still in love, and from what I can gather, the way I met and married him is the norm for a woman today, not the exception. I had a great career, I could put my half of the finances into the house we bought together, and we made the decision to have children jointly. Women shouldn’t look to their husbands for their status or for their happiness. They need to learn to be themselves, to give themselves what life has to offer. As should men. It took my female foremothers several hundred years to gain that right, and I respect the women who went before me to fight for it. I have been known to vote, not because I feel strongly about a particular candidate, but because brave women died and suffered to give me that right. And since Maria brought it up, that goes for abortions, too. If I need one, I’ll get one. It’s none of your business. As it happens, having another child would probably kill me and if my doctor didn’t have the right to offer me a termination, I’d probably die from the experience. And to assume that men are only after one thing? Do you know how insulting that is? Men have aspirations and ideals, too. As if men—real men—only want arm candy. Only immature dickheads look at women as objects to “pump and dump,” and to be honest, most women, after a couple of encounters like that, know the type and avoid them. Or they join in on the game. If you don’t want to watch, don’t look. Draw the lace curtains and turn your back. Most men are looking for someone to talk to as well as someone to take to bed. The ones who are looking for trophies aren’t the ones that interest me, and are certainly not the ones I want to see as the ‘hero’ of any romance I read. In order to talk to a high-achieving man a woman needs some self assurance and some education. More than how to rustle up a cordon bleu dinner. I wonder, do you watch “Mad Men” with a sense of nostalgia for the good old days? As for dirtbags like Roisy, I’d bet he’s making it up as he goes along. I found the column amusing but not very realistic. If he is for real, he needs exposing. A target on his back should do it. Sex. I love it, absolutely love it. These days I confine myself to the one partner, but why should I be ashamed of enjoying a human activity that is cheap and doesn’t hurt anyone else? I revel in the freedom to try something different or new, enjoy being able to dress sexy without automatically being labeled a “tart.” I love discussing it, and I love reading novels that don’t stop at the bedroom door. If you don’t, then good for you, I will fight for your right to continue to read gentler, sweet romances, but I would really love it if you would fight for my right to read something a bit raunchier in return. Nobody is setting it on the curriculum, you don’t have to read it, but a bit of live and let live would be nice. A woman who wants a dominant man hasn’t found her own mojo yet, hasn’t felt how plain good it is to have a partner rather than an object on the other side of the bed, how good it… Read more »

I’ve seen some of the books you mention out there, but I just can’t agree with the premise. Perhaps it’s a product of where I live(DC area), but I see plenty of women who get well into their careers before they marry and they seem to have no problem marrying decent men. I witnessed the phenomenon in law school and I see it now – there are plenty of high-powered lawyers and Mr. Big types marrying other lawyers, lobbyists, high-ranking government officials, you name it. Most men I know are looking for women who are at least close to their level of education and who are interesting to be around. And more than a few of these brides are well over 30, and I’d be willing to guess they are not all terribly inexperienced.

I cannot speak for other countries, but the United States itself is a hodgepodge of different societal groups. I can buy that in some sectors of society women are still expected to marry young or their value on the marriage mart goes down. However, I don’t think this holds true in as many places as it used to. Just by way of a personal example, I got married right before I graduated law school. In the evangelical Christian community I grew up around, I was fast approaching old maid-hood. However, among my professional peers(many of whom are now happily married), folks thought I was getting married almost freakishly early. A lot of hooking up went on among my law school classmates, but not so much wedding planning. The weddings for them came several years after graduation, but they did come, and I haven’t noticed my female classmates settling for any real losers. On the contrary. These women have varying degrees of life experience and varying romantic histories, but many of them have attracted some of the Mr. Bigs of the world.

I’ve seen some of the books you mention out there, but I just can’t agree with the premise. Perhaps it’s a product of where I live(DC area), but I see plenty of women who get well into their careers before they marry and they seem to have no problem marrying decent men. I witnessed the phenomenon in law school and I see it now – there are plenty of high-powered lawyers and Mr. Big types marrying other lawyers, lobbyists, high-ranking government officials, you name it. Most men I know are looking for women who are at least close to their level of education and who are interesting to be around. And more than a few of these brides are well over 30, and I’d be willing to guess they are not all terribly inexperienced.

I cannot speak for other countries, but the United States itself is a hodgepodge of different societal groups. I can buy that in some sectors of society women are still expected to marry young or their value on the marriage mart goes down. However, I don’t think this holds true in as many places as it used to. Just by way of a personal example, I got married right before I graduated law school. In the evangelical Christian community I grew up around, I was fast approaching old maid-hood. However, among my professional peers(many of whom are now happily married), folks thought I was getting married almost freakishly early. A lot of hooking up went on among my law school classmates, but not so much wedding planning. The weddings for them came several years after graduation, but they did come, and I haven’t noticed my female classmates settling for any real losers. On the contrary. These women have varying degrees of life experience and varying romantic histories, but many of them have attracted some of the Mr. Bigs of the world.

I read the articles mentioned in this post and yes, I found them frightening. But not because evil feminism has turned women into evil sluts who sleep around until at around 30 they turn into shriveled old maids who have to settle for any loser who will still have them, but because I found it stunning that such articles and such thinking – insulting to both men and women – are still finding a platform in the 21st century. Even worse, that sort of thinking seems to be on the rise, at least in the US, and it may well infect the rest of the world, too. There is so much wrong with both the post and the linked articles that I don’t even know where to start. First of all, that Gottlieb woman who states that all women will inevitably start getting frightened, if they’re not married at 30 – Oh, please! If she’d said 45 or 50, I might have had some had some sympathy for her, but 30? Except for the US, which still has a freakishly low average age of first marriage (25 or 26, I think), average ages of first marriage all over the Western world have been in the late 20s and early 30s for years now. And people who marry in their late 20s/30s and beyond have a higher chance of enjoying a happy marriage, because they are already settled emotionally and economically. Oh yes, and while abstinence until marriage may still be propagated as an ideal in the US (though I doubt it matches the reality), the overwhelmingly majority of couples live together before marriage, if they bother to get married at all. Because marriage has been in decline for years in most of Europe, it is simply no longer seen as a precondition for either happiness or lasting commitment. As for this whole formal dating thing in the US, it has always struck me as an extremely stressful (for both men and women) and unpleasant custom. Women putting themselves under extreme pressure and not allowing themselves to be who they are just to impress him. Men being expected to pay for everything (most women work nowadays. We can buy our own dinner) and expecting payment in sex after the third date? Why would anyone want to put him- or herself through that? Men and women casually getting to know each other in a relaxing atmosphere and seeing where things go, which is what the definition of “”hooking up”” seems to be, strikes me as so much more healthy. And don’t get me started on all that crap about the biological clock beginning to tick in a woman’s late 20s, going into overdrive at 30 and fertility being almost gone by 35. In the 1970s, my Mom was told she was a late mother, when she had me at the age of 31. Nowadays, pregnancies of 30 and even 40 something mothers are common, most of them conceived by natural means. Though if you really want children, you should get going at around 35. Plus – and that’s another thing that Gottlieb and people like her are forgetting – not every woman wants to get married and not every woman wants children. I decided early on that I did not want children and that I would never get married, though I never ruled out a long-term committed relationship, should the right person come along. If it happened, great. If not, I made sure that I could live just wonderfully on my own. Feminism was the best thing for women everywhere, simply because it gave us the choice to have the life we want. If a woman wants to get married right out of highschool, have lots of babies and be a stay-at-home mom – great, she can do that. If like me, a woman wants a fulfilling life and career first, that does not necessarily include children or men – great, we can do that, too. It’s all about choice. As for men just wanted young, attractive and fertile women, again some of them probably do. We frequently see the result in the gossip columns, when yet another high status male celebrity is having an expensive divorce, because he dumped his aging vapid supermodel wife for a younger and equally vapid supermodel. This is not to say that all supermodels are vapid – I’m sure many of them are very intelligent women. However, those non-vapid supermodels usually want more from life than… Read more »

I read the articles mentioned in this post and yes, I found them frightening. But not because evil feminism has turned women into evil sluts who sleep around until at around 30 they turn into shriveled old maids who have to settle for any loser who will still have them, but because I found it stunning that such articles and such thinking – insulting to both men and women – are still finding a platform in the 21st century. Even worse, that sort of thinking seems to be on the rise, at least in the US, and it may well infect the rest of the world, too. There is so much wrong with both the post and the linked articles that I don’t even know where to start. First of all, that Gottlieb woman who states that all women will inevitably start getting frightened, if they’re not married at 30 – Oh, please! If she’d said 45 or 50, I might have had some had some sympathy for her, but 30? Except for the US, which still has a freakishly low average age of first marriage (25 or 26, I think), average ages of first marriage all over the Western world have been in the late 20s and early 30s for years now. And people who marry in their late 20s/30s and beyond have a higher chance of enjoying a happy marriage, because they are already settled emotionally and economically. Oh yes, and while abstinence until marriage may still be propagated as an ideal in the US (though I doubt it matches the reality), the overwhelmingly majority of couples live together before marriage, if they bother to get married at all. Because marriage has been in decline for years in most of Europe, it is simply no longer seen as a precondition for either happiness or lasting commitment. As for this whole formal dating thing in the US, it has always struck me as an extremely stressful (for both men and women) and unpleasant custom. Women putting themselves under extreme pressure and not allowing themselves to be who they are just to impress him. Men being expected to pay for everything (most women work nowadays. We can buy our own dinner) and expecting payment in sex after the third date? Why would anyone want to put him- or herself through that? Men and women casually getting to know each other in a relaxing atmosphere and seeing where things go, which is what the definition of “”hooking up”” seems to be, strikes me as so much more healthy. And don’t get me started on all that crap about the biological clock beginning to tick in a woman’s late 20s, going into overdrive at 30 and fertility being almost gone by 35. In the 1970s, my Mom was told she was a late mother, when she had me at the age of 31. Nowadays, pregnancies of 30 and even 40 something mothers are common, most of them conceived by natural means. Though if you really want children, you should get going at around 35. Plus – and that’s another thing that Gottlieb and people like her are forgetting – not every woman wants to get married and not every woman wants children. I decided early on that I did not want children and that I would never get married, though I never ruled out a long-term committed relationship, should the right person come along. If it happened, great. If not, I made sure that I could live just wonderfully on my own. Feminism was the best thing for women everywhere, simply because it gave us the choice to have the life we want. If a woman wants to get married right out of highschool, have lots of babies and be a stay-at-home mom – great, she can do that. If like me, a woman wants a fulfilling life and career first, that does not necessarily include children or men – great, we can do that, too. It’s all about choice. As for men just wanted young, attractive and fertile women, again some of them probably do. We frequently see the result in the gossip columns, when yet another high status male celebrity is having an expensive divorce, because he dumped his aging vapid supermodel wife for a younger and equally vapid supermodel. This is not to say that all supermodels are vapid – I’m sure many of them are very intelligent women. However, those non-vapid supermodels usually want more from life than… Read more »

I’m a thirty-something, highly educated, professional, single woman in the city (DC area), and it’s just not that bad out there. There are a lot of nice, smart single women and nice, smart single men out there looking for partners and not trying to intentionally hurt the other. I’m not sure why the single scene has to be described as so oppositional. And, one of the perks of dating in your 30’s is “”we”” seem to have more self-confidence and know what we value more – we aren’t as superficial anymore imho. There’s still emotional risk at the start of any relationship, so there’s always some uncertainty – and perhaps strategies to cover that uncertainty.

I would say that the women are much better at building a fulfilling life as single people than men are from what I’ve observed. There are a number of really lonely, socially awkward, single guys out there.

Hooking up is such a loose phrase that it’s hard to know what it means in each, particular situation, but I don’t think it means just “”hanging out””. The way my peers and I have always used it is to mean some kind of sexual contact – from just a kiss all the way to making love – between two folks outside of a defined relationship or two people who just met – 99.9% of the time involving alcohol or drugs to lower natural inhibitions. The problem always comes from one side of that equation thinking it meant more/or romanticizing it meant more than it does, and that side gets hurt. It’s just too easy to romanticize a date or a relationship before its time – there’s such a strong ideal of and belief in the necessity of finding “”the one””. I guess an equal problem is the number of folks who hooked up who would say they would not have done it if they were sober.

I have friends who have NEVER dabbled in the hookup scene and some who have a lot or just once or twice (and a lot of this has to do with who drinks and who doesn’t much – some of it can be about who is religious and who isn’t but I don’t want to overstate that). Friends in both camps have gone on to happy marriages. I have started to notice that some will say I never hook up, but those younger girls who are willing to do it are ruining it for the rest of us. I’m guessing that’s “”the more things change the more they stay the same.”” :)

Also add me to the number of women who are very grateful to all the feminists who have blazed trails for me. I’d also argue there are many kinds of feminists out there. I like to think of feminism as expanding options as opposed to defining or dictating the one, true path to fulfillment for all women. Like someone else said, we are all individuals with different wants, needs, preferences, etc.

I’m a thirty-something, highly educated, professional, single woman in the city (DC area), and it’s just not that bad out there. There are a lot of nice, smart single women and nice, smart single men out there looking for partners and not trying to intentionally hurt the other. I’m not sure why the single scene has to be described as so oppositional. And, one of the perks of dating in your 30’s is “”we”” seem to have more self-confidence and know what we value more – we aren’t as superficial anymore imho. There’s still emotional risk at the start of any relationship, so there’s always some uncertainty – and perhaps strategies to cover that uncertainty.

I would say that the women are much better at building a fulfilling life as single people than men are from what I’ve observed. There are a number of really lonely, socially awkward, single guys out there.

Hooking up is such a loose phrase that it’s hard to know what it means in each, particular situation, but I don’t think it means just “”hanging out””. The way my peers and I have always used it is to mean some kind of sexual contact – from just a kiss all the way to making love – between two folks outside of a defined relationship or two people who just met – 99.9% of the time involving alcohol or drugs to lower natural inhibitions. The problem always comes from one side of that equation thinking it meant more/or romanticizing it meant more than it does, and that side gets hurt. It’s just too easy to romanticize a date or a relationship before its time – there’s such a strong ideal of and belief in the necessity of finding “”the one””. I guess an equal problem is the number of folks who hooked up who would say they would not have done it if they were sober.

I have friends who have NEVER dabbled in the hookup scene and some who have a lot or just once or twice (and a lot of this has to do with who drinks and who doesn’t much – some of it can be about who is religious and who isn’t but I don’t want to overstate that). Friends in both camps have gone on to happy marriages. I have started to notice that some will say I never hook up, but those younger girls who are willing to do it are ruining it for the rest of us. I’m guessing that’s “”the more things change the more they stay the same.”” :)

Also add me to the number of women who are very grateful to all the feminists who have blazed trails for me. I’d also argue there are many kinds of feminists out there. I like to think of feminism as expanding options as opposed to defining or dictating the one, true path to fulfillment for all women. Like someone else said, we are all individuals with different wants, needs, preferences, etc.

I do not watch Mad Men with a sense of nostalgia since 1) it’s a TV show with fictional characters from a small subsection of society and story arcs that comment only on what the writers and producers want to say about that particular time period and 2) I didn’t live through that period, so I can’t be nostalgic for it. The only young women who did live through that are now in their 70’s and 80’s – frankly, that’s the only female primary source material I’d trust after the epic period of feminist propaganda we have lived through for the last half century, and I’d still take it with a grain of salt.

I don’t think what young women go through today is the same as what they went through in 1970 or even in 1990 when I was in my twenties. Society is changing too rapidly and the “”rules”” are morphing into suggestions. While I would have advised a young woman in 1970 to get an education, I’d hesitate now. The hyper-inflated price of education (esp. relative to stagnating wages) is creating what amounts to indentured servitude for Gen Y (and a significant portion of Gen X). Is it worth it now? I know too many young women with liberal arts degrees (and crushing student loans) working in jobs they could have gotten without degrees. They would say no.

I can’t speak to what the average woman’s life was like in 1900 or 1930 or 1950, but from where I sit it seems like life in general is more chaotic now than it was mid-point through the twentieth century. And I don’t think it’s because feminism hasn’t completed the job it set out to do. Family life is not straightforward, a child’s “”parents”” and “”siblings”” can change multiple times throughout childhood due to divorce, dating, etc. Children, esp. teens, are largely unsupervised when not in school, men don’t see their kids enough, violence has escalated and civility declined. Women are not better off financially – many of them struggle on the point of bankruptcy all the time, mostly because it’s so much more expensive to raise kids when the parents don’t live in the same house.
The majority of women work, but most of them do not work in exciting careers. Jobs are scarce. Indebtedness is at an all-time high. Women don’t even report being happier than they were 35 years ago.

In my book that’s not a resounding success.

I would also say that 35 is really pushing it in terms of successful childbearing. Researchers are now saying that at the age of 30 only 12% of a woman’s eggs remain.

I married at age 27 and have never used birth control and was not able to have a child biologically – I gave it the real college try too. Never did I think growing up that 27 would be too late for me. But it was.

I am a feminist and I read romance novels.

I like it.

I am a feminist and I read romance novels.

I like it.

Was 27 “”too late”” for you or was it not possible at all? Biological clocks aren’t ticking at 27, but I am sorry for your experience.

And I am also a feminist who reads romance novels.

Was 27 “”too late”” for you or was it not possible at all? Biological clocks aren’t ticking at 27, but I am sorry for your experience.

And I am also a feminist who reads romance novels.

Rachel, I’m sorry you see the modern world in such bleak terms, and I’m sorry you were not able to conceive, but if you couldn’t at 27, it is probable that you wouldn’t have at 20, either.

And you wouldn’t advise a woman to get an education? Surely you misspeak… instead advise them to think about their education and where they want to go, rather than just getting an arts degree with no purpose in mind.

I was going to respond yesterday, but just didn’t have time and was so grateful this morning to read all the reasoned, intelligent responses from others.

What a load of horse puckey that frightful article was for the vast majority of people! I know dozens of people in their 20s and 30s, and only two young women I know seem caught up in the party-on treadmill. As for the losers they focused on (Tucker Maxx??? Never heard of him) It seems to me that they took one percent of the population and extrapolated a doomed generation out of it. There are and always have been pathetic girls who would go after a guy like that, but they are not the majority, just as he is not like the majority of guys.

Tirlittan, Willaful, mdegraffen, Michelle and the others, thank you for your common sense answers.

Rachel, I’m sorry you see the modern world in such bleak terms, and I’m sorry you were not able to conceive, but if you couldn’t at 27, it is probable that you wouldn’t have at 20, either.

And you wouldn’t advise a woman to get an education? Surely you misspeak… instead advise them to think about their education and where they want to go, rather than just getting an arts degree with no purpose in mind.

I was going to respond yesterday, but just didn’t have time and was so grateful this morning to read all the reasoned, intelligent responses from others.

What a load of horse puckey that frightful article was for the vast majority of people! I know dozens of people in their 20s and 30s, and only two young women I know seem caught up in the party-on treadmill. As for the losers they focused on (Tucker Maxx??? Never heard of him) It seems to me that they took one percent of the population and extrapolated a doomed generation out of it. There are and always have been pathetic girls who would go after a guy like that, but they are not the majority, just as he is not like the majority of guys.

Tirlittan, Willaful, mdegraffen, Michelle and the others, thank you for your common sense answers.

BTW, the frightful article I was referring to was ‘The New Dating Game; Back to the New Paleolithic Age’ article, not Rachel’s post! Had to make that clear… LOL.

BTW, the frightful article I was referring to was ‘The New Dating Game; Back to the New Paleolithic Age’ article, not Rachel’s post! Had to make that clear… LOL.

AAR Rachel, “”While I would have advised a young woman in 1970 to get an education, I’d hesitate now. “” Color me gobsmacked. Yes, the price of education has gone up, but you don’t need to go to SMU (I live in the DFW area) to get a good education. Surely you cannot be advocating women not pursuing higher education. Women are needed in all professional fields and advanced degrees are essential if you want to be a doctor, for example.

As for children, I began trying when I was 27 and gave up at 35. I endured all sorts of voodoo medical procedures to no avail. Indeed, my inability to conceive is one of the reasons my marriage failed. He remarried (he was 38 she was 19) and had 2 kids, 20 years ago. She kicked him to the curb late last year. Infertility is tough, because you cannot do something that is so easy for the rest of humanity to do that they have to take measures to prevent it. But you know, it all happened for a reason and I have so many things to be thankful for.

To my sister posters above, thank you for your stories and

AAR Rachel, “”While I would have advised a young woman in 1970 to get an education, I’d hesitate now. “” Color me gobsmacked. Yes, the price of education has gone up, but you don’t need to go to SMU (I live in the DFW area) to get a good education. Surely you cannot be advocating women not pursuing higher education. Women are needed in all professional fields and advanced degrees are essential if you want to be a doctor, for example.

As for children, I began trying when I was 27 and gave up at 35. I endured all sorts of voodoo medical procedures to no avail. Indeed, my inability to conceive is one of the reasons my marriage failed. He remarried (he was 38 she was 19) and had 2 kids, 20 years ago. She kicked him to the curb late last year. Infertility is tough, because you cannot do something that is so easy for the rest of humanity to do that they have to take measures to prevent it. But you know, it all happened for a reason and I have so many things to be thankful for.

To my sister posters above, thank you for your stories and

Sorry, inadventently hit the submit button too soon.

Thank you for the insight into your life experiences. You rock!

Sorry, inadventently hit the submit button too soon.

Thank you for the insight into your life experiences. You rock!

Rachel, I’m sorry you see the modern world in such bleak terms, and I’m sorry you were not able to conceive, but if you couldn’t at 27, it is probable that you wouldn’t have at 20, either.

I don’t know. I have endometriosis and by the time we’d figured that out it had taken out one tube. I think once you get pregnant and have been pregnant, it’s easier to do so again. It is, of course, easier to get pregnant the younger you are.

Yes, the price of education has gone up, but you don’t need to go to SMU (I live in the DFW area) to get a good education. Surely you cannot be advocating women not pursuing higher education.

I am not against education, but I think it has to be managed extremely carefully to avoid the stranglehold of student loans. My advice to my son, nephew, or niece would be: live at home, go to community college for the first 2 years, pick an area of study that makes money and has job availability, pursue it single-mindedly, graduate, get that job, and pay off any loans ASAP.

Today’s education system, IMHO, is a racket and a danger for unsuspecting young people who have no idea how long it takes to pay off $30, 40, 70K. Those kinds of loans are just as likely to keep you from your dreams as help you achieve them.