Gone with the Wind is not a romance novel. But it is often mistaken for one – it made the Top 100 Romances at AAR in 1998 and in 2000. (See also here. And here.) And Rhett Butler is often lauded as a romantic hero. In truth, he is a rake and scoundrel, a forerunner if you will to the many rakes and scoundrels that people the pages of historical romances. The original, totally hot bad boy – and in my humble opinion, a douchebag.
When Rhett first meets Scarlet she is 16 to his 33. She is acting like exactly what she is – a spoiled, willful child who isn’t getting her way and isn’t at all used to that sensation. Rhett, who eavesdropped on the scene between her and Ashley that instigated the tantrum, mocks her and laughs at her. This pretty much defines their relationship. Just my opinion but a man who ridicules you is, as Scarlet tells Rhett numerous times, “no gentleman”. That’s not a surprise. At the very start of the novel we are told: “He has the most terrible reputation. His name is Rhett Butler and he’s from Charleston and his folks are some of the nicest people there but they won’t speak to him. . He was expelled from West Point (for drunkenness and something involving women). . . . And then there was that business about the girl he didn’t marry.” Rhett has a long history of not rescuing the women he gets in trouble, which in his time would definitely qualify him as “no gentlemen”.
But Rhett falls far beneath not being a gentleman. It is not just that he treats Scarlet badly or that he goads her until he brings out the worst in her because he believes that “virtues are stupid.” No, the moment that I decided he was a complete douche is when he completely abandons her in her hour of need.
The scene: Atlanta is falling, Scarlet is taking a wagon (which Rhett procured for her) full of vulnerable people back to Tara. The journey will be a dangerous one and Rhett could easily escort them. He chooses not to:
“But Rhett – You- Aren’t you going to take us?”
“No. I’m leaving you here.”
She looked around wildly, at the livid sky behind them, at the dark trees on either hand hemming them in like a prison wall, at the frightened figures in the back of the wagon, – and finally at him. Had she gone crazy? Was she not hearing right?
He was grinning now. She could just see his white teeth in the faint light and the old mockery was back in his eyes.
“Leaving us? Where – where are you going?”
“I am going, dear girl, with the army.”
Let’s break this scene down a bit. The wagon is full of women (one seriously ill) and children. The road is filled with dangerous bandits and possibly enemy soldiers. Rhett has steadfastly refused to fight for the cause (he worked as a blockade runner because it was profitable) – until this very minute. Their continued conversation proves just how much of a jerk he truly is:
She grabbed his arm and felt her tears of fright splash down on her wrist. He raised her hand and kissed it.
“Selfish to the end, aren’t you my dear? Thinking only of your own precious hide and not of the gallant Confederacy. Think how our troops will be heartened by my eleventh hour appearance.” There was a malicious tenderness in his voice.
“Oh, Rhett,” she wailed, “how can you do this to me? Why are you leaving me?”
“Why?” he laughed jauntily. “Because, perhaps, of the betraying sentimentality that lurks in all of us Southerners. Perhaps – perhaps because I am ashamed. Who knows?”
“Ashamed? You should die of shame. To desert us here, alone, helpless -”
“Dear Scarlett! You aren’t helpless. Anyone as selfish and determined as you is never helpless. God help the Yankees if they should get you.”
First, a clarification. Scarlett is not just thinking of “her own precious hide”. If she were, she would abandon the wagon full of dependents, take the horse and ride off into the sunset. Instead, she has to take care of them on that long trek home.
Second, Rhett isn’t helping the cause by adding one soldier to a losing army and abandoning needy women and children. He is being himself and doing exactly what he accuses Scarlett of – thinking only of himself. He could make a real difference on the wagon ride to Tara. The battle he is joining? Already lost. Additionally, not too long before this scene unfolds we are told:
Against no one was feeling more bitter than against Rhett Butler. He had sold his boats when blockading grew too hazardous, and he was openly engaged in food speculation. The stories about him that came back to Atlanta from Richmond and Wilmington made those who received him in other days writhe with shame.
It is highly probable that Rhett is less moved by the cause and more trying to figure out how to do what he accuses Scarlet of “save his own hide”. He needs something to show to the people of the South that he is worthy of staying among them.
Third, not only does he desert her but he insults her on the way out.
I know that Scarlett is no prize. She is far from the perfect heroine. But that doesn’t change the fact that Rhett insults, belittles, and bullies her throughout the book. The only redeeming virtue he ever develops is that he’s nice to kids. There is no big change in how he treats his heroine. No grovel. In fact, he ends the book with what I feel was actually his attitude all along – he didn’t give a damn. When she stopped being an amusing plaything, he left. He was good at that.
So now it is time to ask the question to AAR Staffers: Is Rhett Butler a dreamboat or a douchebag?
Lee: Well obviously I haven’t seen the movie for a long time and I read the book many years ago. I don’t recall Rhett being the douchebag as you described him. But now, with your evidence, it appears he was indeed quite the scalawag. And of course with his signature line of “frankly I don’t give a damn,” that pretty much sums up his character.
Caz: It’s a long time since I read the book or saw the film, but I do remember those things you point out, especially the part where he leaves Scarlett to join the army. Perhaps the author intended for it to make him seem honourable somehow in that he finally decides it’s time to join up and do his bit, but I agree that modern sensibilities are unlikely to see it that way, and I pretty much agree with your take on it.
But in spite of that, I don’t remember disliking him intensely, and at times, felt that Scarlett got what she deserved at his hands. Although she definitely didn’t deserve desertion. Scarlett is the blueprint for many of the annoying, TSTL “feisty” heroines we still see in HR, yet Mitchell does show us how strong she is through all the things she does, like nursing the wounded, caring for Melanie – but she remains recognisably Scarlett because she’s still got those selfish impulses – she just doesn’t act on them, which is a sign of her growing up. We don’t get that with Rhett – I tend to think of him as an old-skool hero, one who very much takes a back seat to the heroine, and thus he’s not as well rounded.
Unlike some of the other heroes we’ve discussed, I can’t remember anything about him that pushes him into dreamboat territory. He may be a handsome charmer, but he lacks the inner qualities that are needed to make him a true romantic hero, IMO.
Haley: It’s been ages since I read the book but I think whatever pushed him into dreamboat territory was Clark Gable’s portrayal. Gable is swarthy and heave handed to Leigh’s Scarlett but he’s damn sexy doing it. I mean, who didn’t want to be carried up the stairs by Clark Gable?
Blythe: Well, as you know, I named my oldest daughter after Scarlett O’Hara, so obviously I am a fan. Not just of her, but of Rhett, and I’ll defend him as a dreamboat. It’s funny that their age difference never registered with me, since I read GWTW when I was fifteen and would have had zero interest in a thirty year old man at the time. What I did feel about Rhett was that he was educated and self-aware. Scarlett isn’t. She’s smart, but she’s not an intellectual; she’s smart about business like her dad. She’s also remarkably obtuse about men and her relationship with them. Rhett loves her anyway.
When Rhett leaves her to get to Tara by herself, he has his reasons. Most notably, he knows that Scarlett isn’t in love with him. She will be eventually, but it’s the tragedy of the book that it takes her too long to realize it. I always thought that eventually she’d get him back. And I think he’s a dreamboat worth getting back.
Shannon: I’ve read the book three times, but only saw the movie once. He’s definitely a douchbag.
Dabney: I can’t see Rhett in a vacuum. I judge him in the context of Scarlett. In that context, I think he is–if these are the choices–a dreamboat. He sees her for who she really is: A woman who values herself above almost anything, a woman who loves and seeks the finer things in life, a woman who uses her intelligence to make others do her bidding. She is his counterpart. This makes him the man for Scarlett. He’s the only guy we see who is capable of holding his own against her. Furthermore, he challenges her both to be kinder to others and to be honest about what she wants. He never agrees with her unless he genuinely thinks she’s right. He doesn’t use his intelligence against her in the way she uses hers against every man she meets. Furthermore, he’s the only guy who makes her pulse pound–he believes she’s capable of great passion and he gives her that in a time when sexual pleasure was considered a sin for women. Yes, he’s capable of great assholery but he’s also the guy who sees her toes tapping beneath her widow’s weeds and, though he knows it will shock all at the bazaar, he makes sure Scarlett can dance.
Heather: For me, as a binary function, Rhett is neither complete dreamboat nor total douchebag. But if we’re grading on a scale, he falls more toward the dreamboat end of the spectrum. He does, of course, have his moments of douchieness. It’s this complexity I believe that makes him attractive to me.
Rhett is basically a war profiteer. He runs blockades, partly I believe for sport, partly for the money, and is quite monetarily successful. I love that he is unabashed about being motivated by self-interest rather than the “grand cause” of the war the other Southerners in the story believe in. I love his self-awareness and that he recognizes in Scarlett a kindred spirit.
I think it’s this recognition that allows him to abandon Scarlett on the way out of Atlanta. He knows she’s a strong, capable woman and he knows that she will do whatever it takes to survive. In this respect, like attracts like. He challenges her and helps bring out the strength she has hidden.Plus, there’s something to be said for his courtly manners. Though I believe he would probably argue the point with me and inform me that he’s no gentleman. And when he says, “You should be kissed, and often, and by somebody who knows how?” I swoon every time.
Maggie: One of the difficulties with books like GWTW or Rebecca is that movie and book become almost interchangeable. That line, delivered by Clark Gable, is swoon worthy. (In fairness, he can make most lines swoon worthy :-) The book has a slightly different scene.
“Scarlet, you need kissing badly. That’s what’s wrong with you. All your beaux have respected you too much, though God knows why, or they have been too afraid of you to really do right by you. The result is you are unendurably uppity. You should be kissed and by somebody who knows how.”
Frankly, I’d have walked away with three points from that conversation.
1)I’m unendurably uppity?
2) That’s what’s wrong with me????
3) Can my beaux respect me too much – and what the heck do you mean, God knows why? Are you saying I don’t deserve respect???
Maybe I’ve grown too used to modern men :-)
Mary: I think he is both. He is not just nice to children, he is also nice, gentlemanly and generous to other women (Melanie and Belle Watling for example). Scarlett began as a brat and grew into a selfish woman. We finally see some introspection at the very end of the book, but other than her looks, there is not much to recommend as far as Scarlett goes. She is strong. She is resilient. But I never quite got what Rhett saw in her, other than a hope and a promise. While I agree that Rhett leaving Scarlett to fend for herself when Atlanta is burning was pretty bad, he was not just going to be a soldier…his blockade running was much more important than that in the grand scheme of the war since the South was so short on supplies. His actions benefited more than just being a soldier. I think he also saw it as a way to actually win some respect from Scarlett. She would not have really given him any for just being an escort. She would have just continued to rail at him and call him a coward for abandoning the “great cause.” I think his actions were to show Scarlett he did have some convictions even if they came too late to do any good. He could be callous and cruel, but I think in his mind he was trying to make Scarlett grow up and face reality. I don’t think at his core he was a cruel man, but he was like the guy who sticks the girl’s pigtail in the inkwell…being annoying to get attention.
Heather: I agree, Mary. One of the scenes that sticks in my mind is him giving Mammy the petticoat.
Mary: And Mammy loved him.
Caz: I still err on the side of his not qualifying as a dreamboat, but others have reminded me about something I forgot to say yesterday, which is that douchebag or not, one of the things Rhett does so well is to bring out the best – as well as some of the worst – in Scarlett. He sees through her and past her pretty face, which is not something other men do – and he deliberately provokes her because he knows she’s got more guts than a simpering miss and wants her to admit to it and use them, if that makes sense.
I agree with what Dabney says about him being the only man who could handle her!
Now it is your turn – what do you think of Rhett- dreamboat or douchebag?
Maggie AAR
Whether some feel Rett Butler is a dreamboat or douchebag is immaterial to any man who has lived his life. He is a schmuck who in the end had the courage and the strength to stop at just the right moment… when you see that look in his eye… sitting there invisible. He was able to be himself again and go back to Charleston where he belonged, while all of the rest of us just go on until life passes us by. A man to be admired and revered in his last scene. The first time he was truly happy in the entire movie, with the world before him, into the fog, but no longer a schmuck. Others can only do less… and over those who are sadly… no Ashley Wilkes.
You don’t think he spent his life pining over Scarlett?
Yes, he did spend his life pining during those few short years from the time he first saw her until he was sitting there listening to her as if he never even existed, two minutes from the end of the movie. Once he went into fog, he had no more reason to ever pine again. Play the last few minutes. Look at his face and into his eyes as he hears the words, and then listen to the way he says his famous parting line as only Clark Gable could. He never really needed very much… just to be held a little now and then. His boyish exuberance and the depth of his love are hard to watch for hours… if you watch the ending first. You might then see how he got to that place.
Love that this discussion has popped up again! Just read through all of the comments once more, seeing strong and articulate comments. A joy to re-read.
I think theres too much over analysis on a story that should be taken for what it is…a n epic rich tale set in the south about a protagonist with gumption and the different people that surround her. Her relationship with Rhett Butler may seem sexist and abusive to some but secretly women desire their passion. If Mitchell wanted the characters to hate one another she wouldn’t have even bothered. Gone with the Wind is a novel she wrote at whim in her spare time. She dudnt intend for it to be a grand, epic and symbolic tale.
Absolutely not a dream boat! It may just be that I’m not prone to male charms (I far prefer Scarlett if you catch my drift) but by god is he awful! Not only does he abandon her and make rude comments about respect but he threatens to crush her skull “like a walnut” Rhett Butler is borderline abusive to her even if he does accept her for her flaws. He spends the end of the book turning everyones opinions against her. I’m nit sure how many people have read the sequel but I’m sitting here with only 50 pages left, begging for Rhett to grow up and get over himself. He’s dramatic and tosses Scarlett around at whims. I agree that he treats her like a toy, gets bored and moves on to something new, leaving her alone. In the sequel she grows to be more happy, loving, generous and finds less worth in money once she is away from Rhett and he doesn’t know her whereabouts. It’s only when he finds her again that she starts to slip back into her old ways but she never fully does. He is an inconsiderate prick. That being said, if he can grow the hell up and treat her right then I think they should get back together. Ideally, thats the best option. Scarlett has had her chracter growth. Now it’s Rhett’s turn.
I’ve always thought Rhett was a dreamboat – since my mother bought me the book on my 13th birthday. But in the last few years (I’ve read the book or large swaths of it at least 20 times, and I’ve seen the movie 5-6 times) I’ve started questioning my unequivocal devotion to Rhett.
I don’t have a problem with his joining the army – he was, as someone above wrote, following his own code of honor, and once the South was bloodied, disillusioned and practically beaten, he couldn’t help but come to its rescue.
And I don’t have a problem with the staircase scene – I don’t think it was rape. I feel like it was his last ditch effort to get through to her. He wasn’t the rapey type – he didn’t need to be bc he could have sex whenever he wanted. Hello Belle! And remember he behaved as a gentleman to Scarlett once she said no more sex. For years. So he didn’t seem to have a problem with “no means no.” But that scene does raise the question of their previous sex life. Was that night the first time Scarlett experienced an orgasm, and if so, why? Rhett has a way with women and presumably a wealth of sexual experience – so why would this be her first orgasm as the book suggests? Why wouldn’t he have been giving her awesome sex from the get go? Thoughts? I’m confused.
So my devotion to Rhett started to dwindle with his never-ending cageyness about revealing his true feelings to Scarlett. It drove me crazy and made me respect him a wee bit less bc I see it as emotional cowardice on his part. He was how much older/more mature than Scarlett? He knew her better than she knew herself? So then he should have known that she was emotionally closed off and dense. His push/pull feelings – mocking her one minute, teasing her the next – sent mixed signals. No wonder she didn’t know what to think. And wouldn’t he know, since he was good at reading people, as the book claims many times over, that she too would be wary or scared of confessing her true feelings to him? And here’s the thing, Rhett hid his true feelings and when things got tough – he took off. He left after their night of passion for a week. Then he left her for another 3 months with Bonnie. He would have left again if she hadn’t told him about the pregnancy. But the minute Scarlett realized her true feelings for Rhett, as Melanie lay dying, she ran as fast as she could in order to tell him. Say what you will about her, but Scarlett’s no coward.
And I feel like Rhett was always punishing Scarlett for not loving him. Except she never lied to him when she accepted his proposal. He knew she didn’t love him when he decided to marry her. Yes, it was a gamble, yes he thought he could change that, but then he took it out on her when he realized it wasn’t happening. I’m not sure I think that was fair of him. You can’t punish someone for not loving you when they’ve told you truthfully how they feel and you went ahead anyway. Would he have preferred she lied to him like the simpering southern belle that he mocked her for and hated?
And then there’s the hypocrisy. He wants and encourages her to throw away societal norms – but then changes the game after she does. I didn’t like that he turned the old guard against her – if he loved her he would have had her back. And I didn’t like that he tried to turn Bonnie against her. It’s not a zero sum game. The child’s love for her mother doesn’t detract from her love for her father.
Anyhoo, thanks for letting me get that off my chest. Going now to read the damn book again.
I have also been thinking why he hasn’t given her awesome sex from the beginning. One explanation maybe that he was fearing of frightening and insulting her because of the social norms at that time that ladies are fragile, innocent, don’t like sex and must be sheltered. In Alexandra Ripley’s From Fields of Gold a Southern plantation daughter Chess marries a womanizer Nate. He has a lot of sexual experience but sex with his wife is dull. She first learns that a woman can take pleasure in it after having an affair with an European.
Besides Scarlett and Rhett stop sharing a bed after a year, nine months of which she is pregnant.
Those are good points. I’ve read several historical romances where the husband is in lust/love with his lady wife but doesn’t want to offend her with his passions.
Rhett is absolutely a dreamboat! A complicated, intriguing, always reassuring, glass-half-full hero. Hating Rhett because he left Scarlett and joined the Army? Doesn’t he get credit for getting her (and Melanie and the baby) out of Atlanta before Sherman came, and as the scavengers were looting anything left? He somehow found a horse and buggy to rescue her, and knew her well enough to know that she would get to Tara. In the movie, you can see his mind changing as he sees the broken solders marching rag-tag out of town. He loved Scarlett, and understood her better than anyone in her life. Melanie understands him and his worth, and they have a mutual respect for each other, although they are absolute opposites, Ashley was the one who was disgustingly duplicitous through the entire story. He leads Scarlett on over and over, and never is absolutely faithful to Melanie, He is weak and idealistic at a time when strength and clear-headedness would have been immensely helpful in keeping food in everyone’s mouths. Rhett sees Scarlett for who she is the first time he sees her. They are so much alike, and if not for Scarlett’s obsession with a man who would have never made her happy, he would have loved her as she needed. Every man in her life warned her about the differences between her and Ashley – her father, Rhett, even Ashley himself. How many times did Rhett rescue her, or try to get between her and disaster? Read the book again with that in mind, and Rhett’s love for her becomes even more obvious.: getting her out of Atlanta, keeping Ashley out of trouble when Frank was killed, knowing that if she didn’t attend Melanie’s party, she would be forever outcast. The trip up the stairs after Scarlett’s scandalous behavior with Ashley was a final attempt to convince her that Ashley was not the man she needed. It is said that Margaret Mitchell based the character of Rhett on George Trenholm, the dashing blockade runner of the Confederacy, whose brains and beauty were legendary. His true story is worth the research!
I saw the movie first, in a theater when I was about 11. That would have been 1966. Loved it!
I read the book a couple of years later. It was a much simpler time and I was almost entirely ignorant of sex and adult relationships in general. I took the characters at face value and didn’t think too deeply about all the undercurrents.
But I read the book several times over the next 15 years, and then when I was around 30 it was once again in theaters. I had befriended a young woman of about 19, and she was completely unfamiliar with the story, so I took her to the show. We were blown away by Scarlett’s resolve and strength, a bit shocked by her cunning, and amazed by her unending level of denial. But once again, I loved it. (She and I are still best friends, btw. And if you ever get the opportunity to see the movie on the big screen, you should.)
Rhett and Scarlett are not very nice people, they are all about their own needs and their own survival. Rhett understood that, but Scarlett never really did. She persisted in seeing herself as a good woman thwarted by others. They could never have been good partners for anyone else, but they were perfect for one another. Together, they just might have won that ghastly war!
I was never bothered by the staircase scene or even by the slavery because it happened. I hate that it (slavery) happened, but denying it won’t make it go away. In the book the enslaved people are treated far better than they likely were in real life, a bit like feeble-minded but beloved children. I’m sure the truth was much more malevolent. I’ve encountered lots of people over the years who feel that the book is about slavery, but it isn’t. It’s about Scarlett, and to lesser degrees Rhett, Ashley, and Melanie.
Is the book racist? Yes. It was written in a time when racism was barely acknowledged in white society, it just was, I grew up on the tail end of that society, in a very racist family, so I recall well the toxic but unthinking attitudes of a great many white Americans. When Mitchell wrote this book in the 1930s it was just a given that people of color were inferior to whites. So it would have been impossible for her to have filtered that out of her book entirely.
As mature adults, I think Rhett and Scarlett would have continued to have a somewhat fractious relationship (he did love to needle her!), but I also think that they would have respected one another and been loyal. They also would have burned up the sheets. I’m not sure Scarlett could ever have bonded with any future children, but Rhett had that covered. He clearly loved kids, and once he got past Bonnie’s death a bit more, he would have wanted more children. Now, I always felt Bonnie was a spoiled and stubborn hellion in training, so the rest of the Butler family might have been cut from the same cloth. Rhett would have admired contrariness in his kids, but Scarlett would have pretended to be scandalized I think.
Anyway, I would not have much liked the Butlers, but they were tough, independent survivors at a time when that sort of person was much needed in the south.
I’m not bothered by the sweep up the stairs scene. I think, at the time, it was a way to show that Scarlett had a passionate nature she didn’t understand. Like many things from earlier eras, I wouldn’t be comfortable with it today but, in the original context, it works. I don’t feel the same way about the elision of slavery in the film but the sex scene is OK with me.
I loved reading Rhett and Scarlett when I first read the book–I confess I’ve never re-read it although I’ve seen the movie several times. There are so so many characters in fiction that I wouldn’t want to hang out with but love experiencing on the page or the screen.
I’m 24, and I just finished reading it for the first time two days ago. Then, I watched the movie, and enjoyed it. Scarlett’s biggest flaws were that she was willfully ignorant, manipulative, and poor at introspection. Rhett was a coward who was afraid to let Scarlett love him and vice versa, so he covered up his insecurities by first trying to buy her love, dropping hints, forcing himself on her, being cruel, and/or running away. Oh, he wasn’t a physical coward, but an emotional one? Definitely. By the end, he still can’t take full
responsibility for his cowardice, and completely blames Scarlett for their problems. She’s not completely blameless in their marriage. Marrying him when she thought she loved someone else, withholding sex, and being needlessly cruel to him about Bonnie’s death are all of Scarlett’s faults. However, Rhett was too much of a coward to tell Scarlett he still cared about her after they got married, which resulted in needless cruelty on his part as well when Scarlett didn’t pick up the hint. He talks about how he “won’t risk his heart a third time” by the end of the novel in their last conversation right as he leaves her, but he never really risked his heart in the first place.
I always felt that Rhett and Scarlett’s relationship would have been a success, or at least stood a chance, if the main flaws of any of the four people involved (him, her, Ashley and Melanie) had been removed.
Ah, but then the story wouldn’t be such a beautifully horrifying soap/trainwreck would it?
I know, but I always want the fictional characters I care about to be happy together.
I get that too. It’s part of the reason why I’m also still such a sucker for the BATB trope in fiction, and love stories like Jane’s and Rochester’s from Jane Eyre’s. Was Rochester arrogant, illogically controlling, deceptive, manipulative, and selfish in his cowardice and self-loathing over Jane’s rejection/potential rejection? Yep, he sure was. Would I date or marry someone like him in real life just because he was less problematic than Heathcliff, Rhett Butler, or the Phantom in real life? No. But Rochester still never intended any harm, he had some common decency/sense, in spite of all his flaws, and he could be tamed by true love from Jane, which is a BATB that actually allows him to be more sympathetic and likable than most Byronic Heroes in fiction.
Yeah, I realize I’m applying real life modern day law and sensibilities to that staircase scene. It still doesn’t make it acceptable in my mind because I think consent is an important thing in any relationship, which needs to be respected between two people to survive and thrive healthily, and even back then marital rape and sexual assault of wives by their husbands was still seen as indecent. However, I will acknowledge that back in the Civil War era, indeed, long before the early 1900s before women’s equality to men became a big thing, when men married women, everything of the woman’s became their possession by law, including their bodies. In fact, most women, aside from Melanie (bless her soul) unfairly blamed Scarlett for Frank’s death because she decided to go out to run her lumber mill business when she was pregnant and almost got raped. India Wilkes, and many other women in the novel, aside from Melanie, victim blamed Scarlett by telling her that she should have been raped on the road by that stranger because she was just going out to do a “man’s work” like any other 20th-21st century women. Scarlett didn’t deserve to be raped on the road by that assailant, but no one seemed to realize how truly messed up, unfair, and wrong it was to blame Scarlett for Frank’s death and make her feel guilty for almost being raped because she didn’t sit at home and knit sweaters and quilts for the ”cause,” except for Melanie.
Thus, I can completely understand why many people living in an era before the 21st century would have trouble understanding just how imperative it is to treat a woman’s consent, rights, and safety as equal to a man’s in the world. I can’t excuse it because there were still people who were starting to realize that women should be treated as equal to men, but if you grew up within a society that was pervaded by an inherent normalization of misogyny and racism, then it would be a very tough mindset to break free of, so it’s easy to see why many people in that context were blindly problematic “products of their time.”
Nonetheless, Rhett told Melanie that he wanted to hurt Scarlett in that staircase scene after her miscarriage. He not only felt guilty about the “Maybe, you’ll have a miscarriage” comment and Scarlett’s nearly fatal tumble down the stairs and subsequent miscarriage, but the staircase scene which preceded it. Scarlett said Rhett had “bullied” and “used” her in regards to that scene.
Why would Scarlett have referred to that sex scene with Rhett as being “bullied” and “used” if it was completely consensual “rough” sex? Why would Rhett have felt so guilty afterwards and told Melanie that he hurt Scarlett and wanted to in that scene after she has her miscarriage and almost died? The “not if they enjoyed it” excuse is a way for victims of rape, rapists, and/or bystanders of it to rationalize rape.
It occurs when:
An excuse for rape, used by a character. Used in at least three situations:
• When a rapist denies that his/her actions can be classified as rape because the victim climaxed. This ignores the physiological fact that orgasm is as much a function of sufficient nerve stimulation as anything else.
• When a rape is occurring, and the victim first protests and then starts having fun.
• When a character is raped until they like it and can’t get enough of it.
Granted, we don’t know how the sex scene played out between Scarlett and Rhett in the most concrete and literal fashion, but the fact that Scarlett refers to have ultimately enjoyed being “bullied” and “used” by Rhett, her initial fears and protests against his advances, and the fact that Rhett says he hurt her and wanted to hurt her that night, strongly suggests that he probably raped Scarlett and Scarlett started to enjoy it at some point in spite of her initial protests against him, which points to the strong probability that she is using the “It wasn’t rape because he made me start to enjoy it, even though I fought against him at first” rationalization.
Honestly, the only main character who was a genuinely good person through and through was Melanie Hamilton, but she was so naively kind and sweet that she could get annoyingly pathetic.
I just read Gone With the Wind with the mindset of “Rhett and Scarlett are despicable people who I’d never want to be involved with in real life, but their relationship and their lives are this trainwreck that I can’t look away from.”
I think Scarlett is a pretty interesting character. If she were a person in real life would I want to be friends with her? No way! She was petty, shallow, selfish, manipulative, and ruthless. However, I can’t deny that she’s not pure evil or a sociopath like most people want to portray her, either. Narcissistic? Absolutely. But I can completely understand why she became the way she did. Her parents neglected her emotionally when she was a child, and she got married at 16. Of course, anyone would have trouble developing empathy in those circumstances.
Her marriage to Charlie Hamilton was pure folly, she was cruel to Frank Kennedy, and the toxicity in her marriage with Rhett went both ways.
Also, Ashley was a coward, yes, and it was stupid for Scarlett to obsess over some guy she had nothing in common
My big problem with Rhett Butler came in that romanticized borderline rape of Scarlett. I have a problem with how Scarlett ultimately enjoyed it, and used that to rationalize it as okay, To be fair, it is actually a common literary trope for all female heroines/antiheroines in romantic relationships with Byronic Heroes to get a perverse sort of thrill of the danger/threat of danger associated in being with them. In Jane Eyre, Rochester once verbally threatens Jane with physical violence to get her talking, but he never goes through with it because it’s decidedly an empty threat on his part and Jane knows how to reach for his humanity, even when she’s leaving him in spite of his desperate pleas with her not to. Rather than being totally terrified, she actually feels a sense of thrill at the positive emotional influence she has over him, though, considering the context, I think Rochester was just bluffing all along when he said that “I’ll try violence” line.
Whereas Rochester was more bark than actual bite, and capable of being tamed by love, as is common for all BATB stories, Rhett Butler was actually pretty dangerous.
I think my biggest problem with GWTW is that the story ends with Rhett getting the last word, and Scarlett getting little to no chance to call him out for his shit. Yeah, she was a bitch to him who deserved to lose him, it was for the best for her too because he was also an awful husband to her. In Jane Eyre, Jane still saw genuine good in Rochester without condoning the bad, whereas Scarlett just wanted to pretend all of the bad between her and Rhett never happened at the end, though she did try to call him out for being nasty. She was doing the exact same thing with Ashley before the end of the novel when she was obsessing over him.
In some ways, Scarlett did develop and grow up. She realized that Melanie was actually a true friend through thick and thin who deserved better than her. She realized that she didn’t love Ashley. I admire her determination. However, I can’t help but feel frustrated that at the end, it also seems that by realizing she supposedly loves Rhett, she’s just over-idealizing a man who she was in a two-way toxic relationship with for six years by trying to pretend their problems never happened.
I guess if you just read Gone With The Wind as this beautifully horrifying historical romance between two messed up people that’s just fun to read about to see whatever happens next, whether it’s good or bad, it works, but if you’re someone who wants a story with justice and self-realization, it’s kind of disappointing.
It’s been 30+ years since I last read the book or watched the movie. Clearly, I need to fix that!
But, I always felt that the story was about Scarlett, and all of the circumstances that swirled around her were there in order to help define her character (and character development) for the reader. She was tough as old boots, came to understand that about herself, and Rhett helped show her the way. Since Scarlett always got the things she wanted most, I have faith she got Rhett back, too.
I first read GwtW when I was ten and I HATED Scarlett. She seemed so selfish and cruel to me. I’ve read it again as an adult and while I know see Scarlett more as a product of her environment, she’s still just awful to me!
She’s a polarizing character, but I admire her for her inner strength. She sets goals and attains them, she doesn’t let anyone get in her way, and she takes care of what’s hers. Rhett is the only one who understood that about her, before she did herself.
Yes, she was spoiled and tempestuous, but she rose to the occasion when it was necessary. Times were not just hard, they were brutal, and she did what she felt she had to do in order to survive and to ensure the survival of her family. She didn’t understand how to love or bond emotionally, but she understood responsibility and she shouldered it.
Rhett loved her, but he was so grief-stricken over Bonnie and tired of tilting at Scarlett’s windmills, I think he just walked away in sheer exhaustion. But Scarlett finally did understand that not only did she love Rhett, but that he had always loved her and always would. More, that they were worthy of each other. So yes, she got him back. I know she did. And I admire her for her fortitude and determination if not her personality.
Honestly, I kind of thought that Scarlett and Rhett had a relationship that was both pleasant and messy before they got married. Then, after that, they just went straight downhill.
Gosh, how fun to see this old discussion rekindled! I remember following it in 2014 and loved how it stimulated such a wide ranging portfolio of views. For what it’s worth, Byronic hero is a very apt description of Rhett, I too prefer Mr Rochester and Scarlett was the epitome of the girls I most disliked in high school decades ago.
Rhett’s pretty much like every fictional Byronic Hero. He’s got some terribly loving, charming and romantic hero in him interspersed with some terribly toxic and ugly cad-like traits in him. Scarlett’s pretty much the female version of the Byronic Hero without self-awareness, so they make for a destructive romance. Yeah, there was some genuine love in their relationship at certain points, but I think they needed a break from each other at the end of the novel. It ends on an ambiguous note with Rhett ending their romance and going away for awhile, though not officially divorcing her, and Scarlett determined to win him back. I think there is some evidence that Rhett still loves Scarlett at the end because he doesn’t divorce her and says he’ll be back from time to time, but, more than anything, I think he was just broken and tired. There’s a lot of resentment between them, for good reason, and like he said, “Sorry isn’t always enough to fix it.”
Personally, I would never want to marry or date a Byronic Hero in real life, but I can’t deny that I love novels about romances between one or more problematic people who have to struggle with an internal conflict and see whether it can be overcome or not. I generally get bored reading about healthy relationships, though they can be interesting too, if well done.
Honestly, I prefer Mr. Rochester from Jane Eyre to Rhett Butler from Gone With The Wind. Yeah, he was arrogant, controlling, entitled, deceptive, manipulative, and hot-tempered. However, the narrative of the novel really made me understand why he was that way, and made it impossible not to sympathize with him anyway in spite of his flaws. Plus, I just thought Rhett’s mistreatment of Scarlett was way worse than Rochester’s mistreatment of Jane. While all Byronic Heroes have a relatively obscure history as a general rule, the third person limited narrative of Gone with the Wind, while better than third person omniscient, still didn’t really put me in the characters shoes as well as the narrative of Jane Eyre
I love your insights here. I too prefer Rochester to Rhett (although Rhett does seem he’d be the better lover). I’ve always imagined Rhett happily remarried to someone who is kind and who brings out the best in him. Scarlett and Rhett are, despite their ages, crazy, destructive teenage lovers who could never live peacefully together. I imagine Scarlett having a series of younger lovers who are entranced, at first, by her and then ultimately realize she’s really only all about Scarlett.
For starters, I’ve never seen the movie or any other adaptation of the book, so Clark Gable has nothing to do with my interpretation of Rhett Butler. But dreamboat for sure.
I knew immediately from the first mention of Rhett, before Mitchell introduced him as a character with a name and background, that he and Scarlett were soulmates and that their love was the primary romance thematically. Since it’s such an epic, multifaceted masterpiece of writing, there are multiple themes and plots woven together so romance is definitely not the focus of the story. It’s history, war, culture, tragedy, feminist identity and coming of age… multiple levels to its greatness and it’s downfalls too. But Rhett defines the romance layer of Scarlett’s story.
He sees her as an equal from the beginning because of her rebellion and cunning. He’s no gentleman, as she’s no lady! She thinks the antebellum manners and social expectations are stupid, just like he does. She hates that women are supposed to dumb down their intelligence for men and he wants a strong, intelligent woman to keep up with his wits rather than a boring, ignorant woman who can’t have deep conversations. He says that he wants a mind-body-spirit kind of love with her, so he sees her for so much more than men in that time typically saw their wives. They both have bad reputations for breaking unspoken rules and offending people but neither cares what the old gossipy townspeople thought. She wanted to dance but no other man would have dared dance with a new widow. They both thought the war was stupid. He cares enough to develop a bond with her son before going after her. He waits for her to find herself and grow into an adult before pursuing it. He mocks her because he knows her soul and her mind better than she even does and this is him being totally honest, open, vulnerable in my opinion because he would just lie and be fake to anyone else. I don’t think it’s ridicule because he seems to absolutely adore all of these qualities about her that make him smile and giggle. When he abandoned her the night Atlanta fell, I think he had to do that for Scarlett’s sake because he knew that she was strong and could do anything she put her mind to, and that she didn’t need ANY man. He believed in her more than she ever believed in herself and she needed to find that strength in herself and stop with all of the whining and self-pity the patriarchy brainwashed into her. And she was so infatuated with Ashley’s loyalty to the confederacy that he felt he would have to prove his manly southern pride in order for her to ever respect him. But he definitely still came to her rescue that night, he got her out of there when she was at her darkest hour because he would always be there to catch her and pick her back up when she fell. He and Scarlett are BOTH profiteers and make fourtunes off of other people, as she proves herself cutthroat and scheming in business like he is. He sees past her pretty face because he knows that she is more than that in a time when most women didn’t care to be more than a pretty face. He is the only man that can handle her AND she is the only woman who can handle him. Rhett is the only person who Scarlett could ever truly be 100% open and honest with, and Scarlett is the only person who Rhett can be openly and honestly with. That vulnerability of giving yourself to someone separates every other love in a person’s life from the most magical, passionate, once in a lifetime love. Which boils down to Rhett being the only person Scarlett could ever be madly, passionately in love with and Scarlett being the only woman who could ever drive Rhett head over heels in love. Ashley was nothing but a childhood love, the nostalgic embodiment of what we thought our lives were supposed to be.
When I was fifteen, I read science fiction and fantasy, and only those genres.
Then one day, I found a tattered old copy of Gone With The Wind. I knew nothing about it except that it was a thick book, which was good because I’m a very fast reader. That night, at nine pm, I settled down in bed with the book, intending to read a chapter or two before I fell asleep.
At five a.m. I finished it.
I am now on my third copy of GWTW. The first one fell apart because I read it so often and a friend asked for the second. And since I’m a romance writer, any time one of my heroines has dark hair and green eyes, you know who she’s inspired by.
He’s hot tho
This is why I love opinion pieces about fictional characters, they’re just so subjective. I took a completely different view of Rhett… I always felt that (although a ladies man, and a very brash person) he ultimately knew how strong and Independent Scarlett was (or could be) and his mocking attitude towards her, always felt more like a push to stop making her act so helpless and dependant on him. The part when he leaves her on the cart back to Tara, I felt was more of a ‘oh stop acting so incapable’ type of scene… which at many points, she needed to hear. I always felt that she made him feel so inferior, that HE felt as though he was being mocked by HER, when she acted like she ‘needed’ him.
GWTW won the Pulitzer. In my print edition, the preface is written by Pat Conroy, who is no writing slouch himself. I see “Gone with the Wind” as a literary masterpiece that doesn’t fit neatly into a 90k worded framework with a HEA. In other words, I don’t think it can be compared to a modern romance novel, nor could “Jane Eyre” or “Wuthering Heights.” GWTW is epic in scale, filled with imperfect characters who have no PR people to gloss over those imperfections.
I heard Kurt Vonnegut speak many years ago, and he complained about Disney endings, that real life had more of a “Hamlet” arc. I love a great romance novel, too, don’t get me wrong. When I read “Me Before You” and wept copiously – because there isn’t a happy ending – there are times I crave that kind of reading experience, because real life isn’t a ride into the sunset. All readers are different, though, and some people can’t stomach a novel, movie or TV series that doesn’t end happily.
We can post anonymously and boast that we’re somehow flawless, but we’re not. Scarlett had faults and so did Rhett. Viva la faults, I say! It makes for interesting reading. Bland heroes and heroines are a surefire yawn.
My opinion, GWTW isn’t a novel written for the modern romance reader who’s been weaned on HEA’s. It’s literature, where real-life mistakes are made. “Grapes of Wrath” is populated with flawed characters. Should we fault “The Old Man and the Sea,” too, because the lead tries to catch the elusive marlin… and he’s old, his reflexes aren’t what they used to be? Wouldn’t his decision to stay on his boat and strive to catch that fish be considered a “too stupid to live” maneuver? Literature teems with flawed characters who make the wrong decisions and plunge themselves into perilous situations. We care as readers and keep flipping those pages. We want to find out what they learn, how they change, if the life lesson imparted has power.
There are some readers who have a low threshold for male heroes who won’t fit in the “grovel character arc.” Grovel? (Shudder) Is that what makes a great romance, the poor guy has to grovel? As a romance reader and writer, I can’t respect a man who grovels. Can any of us? I don’t see women as the superior sex, but see women and men both having strengths and weaknesses. To me, Rhett and Scarlett were pretty evenly matched. Both of them were dimensional and the sexual tension between them crackles – without the sex! That, my friends, is hard to do.
Google “Gone with the Wind” and see if you can find some of the excellent literary essays about the novel. I found one – if I could find it now, I’d include a link – on how GWTW is about feminism, and that Ashley & Rhett lose a lot more as characters than Scarlett does.
Also, for any GWTW fans out there, I highly recommend that you watch the documentary on Margaret Mitchell, which was aired on PBS in 2012.
http://www.pbs.org/wnet/americanmasters/episodes/margaret-mitchell-american-rebel/watch-the-full-documentary/2047/
Purchase on Amazon:
http://www.amazon.com/American-Masters-Margaret-Mitchell–Rebel/dp/B007IUEDTE/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1418161764&sr=8-1&keywords=margaret+mitchell+american+rebel
My opinion, GWTW isn’t a novel written for the modern romance reader who’s been weaned on HEA’s. It’s literature, where real-life mistakes are made.
This comment just kind of rubbed me the wrong way. It sounds like you are saying that romance readers cannot appreciate literature or romance novels cannot be or become literature. I disagree. And…Jane Eyre does have a HEA (Edward even regains some of his sight).
I loved Gone With The Wind when I first read it, but I thought the romance was between Rhett and Scarlet. It was actually between Scarlet and Ashley. The whole plot is her trying to win Ashley, which she does in the end. I loved the conversations between Rhett and Scarlet – but after Rhett marries Scarlet and she doesn’t fall madly in love with him, which I think he expected, he treats her horribly. Scarlet realizes she no longer loves Ashley by then, but Rhett is so mean, she sees no hope for love. It’s an unhappy story and reflects Margaret Mitchell’s unhappy marriage to her first husband “”Red.””
IMO Ashley is a WAY bigger douchebag than Rhett, always oh so reluctantly giving in to her advances and then going on about how no it cannot be! We are too different. Ugh.
I first read this book when I was ten and even then I loathed Ashley. I am also not a Melanie fan. She simpered.
He seems like a douchebag for me. I have always thought that there’s a moment in which he rapes her. I never would consider a rapist as a hero. He sees Scarlett as she is but at the same time, he does not really help her to be the best version of herself. But that’s just my opinion.
When? When he takes her up the stairs?
The book suggests they had rough sex, which Scarlett liked very much (apparently it was the first time Rhett was less than gentle), but not that it was nonconsensual:
“”She was darkness and he was darkness and there had never been anything before this time, only darkness and his lips upon her. She tried to speak and his mouth was over hers again. Suddenly she had a wild thrill such as she had never known; joy, fear, madness, excitement, surrender to arms that were too strong, lips too bruising, fate that moved too fast. For the first time in her life she had met someone, something stronger than she, someone she could neither bully nor break, someone who was bullying and breaking her. Somehow, her arms were around his neck and her lips trembling beneath his and they were going up, up into the darkness again, a darkness that was soft and swirling and all enveloping….
The man who had carried her up the dark stairs was a stranger of whose existence she had not dreamed. And now, though she tried to make herself hate him, tried to be indignant, she could not. He had humbled her, hurt her, used her brutally through a wild mad night and she had gloried in it.
Oh, she should be ashamed, should shrink from the very memory of
the hot swirling darkness! A lady, a real lady, could never hold
up her head after such a night. But, stronger than shame, was the
memory of rapture, of the ecstasy of surrender.””
So while words like “”fear,”” “”bruising,”” “”hurt her,”” and “”brutally”” might sound rape-y, to me “”her arms were around his neck,”” “”she had gloried in it”” and “”the ecstasy of surrender”” indicates that Scarlett consented. (This isn’t as clear in the movie, in which Vivien Leigh as Scarlett puts up a definite struggle.) My (personal, YMMV) interpretation is that it’s meant to suggest rough sex at a time when “”he pounded her like a sledge hammer”” would’ve gotten the book banned.
There is no way that scene is rape. This was not a “”yes”” means “”yes”” era. I have always though that it’s clear that Scarlett longs for someone to “”bully and break”” her because it enables her to stop having to take care of herself for a moment. She glories in “”the ecstasy of surrender”” here because it’s exhausting and lonely to be her.
I think people often confuse the book with the movie. The movie does represent to my mind a non-consensual sex scene, which is then contradicted the next morning when we see a self-pleased Scarlet lying alone in bed. I think the contradictions between consensual and non-consensual is troubling in the movie because it creates that sense that women do not really know what they want sexually and need a strong man to determine it for them. The book, however, presents passion and frustration and consensus, or at least that is how I’ve always read it.
I was so freaked when I found out that people consider that scene to be rape. I’m a pretty radical feminist, “no means no,” type of woman who finds rape fantasies disgusting. But that scene?! That wasn’t scary or violent or controlling or abusive at all. That was love making. Passionate and raw and uninhibited and Scarlett was very much in love with him and wanted him, I think she just didn’t know it because she wouldn’t know real love if it smacked her in her face. If he were a rapist or even just spousal abuse domination type of possessive husband, he would have snapped before this. He was very respectful of her for YEARS while courting her, not even trying to kiss her when SHE WOULD BRING IT UP, and never tried to coerce her before this. No man would so willingly end their sexual relationship as abruptly as they did, or go so far to respect your space that he never tries to sleep in the same bed as her or step foot in her bedroom or see if she was locking the door. That night was probably the first time Scarlett ever made love and felt what real sex was all about. She held on to him and kissed him. I feel bad for people who think that’s rape bc y’all must be having mediocre sex honestly.
Not necessarily. Slang begins almost as code words known to the relatively few within a certain population and then over time branches out into common usage. And if you hit your thumb with a hammer, sometimes only a “”fuck”” will do. ;0)
I think the emergence of slang and the ways in which words become codified in societies is fascinating. I think too that the ways in which slang is used to unify disparate groups of people is fascinating. I also think that slang renders us lazy too, and often all at the same time. Pushing ourselves to think hard and critically and construct powerful and complex words is healthy and creative. If push comes to shove, I could have fun constructing a list of pointed and charged words to compete with the everyday and overdone “”fuck,”” but I’m probably weird that way. Doesn’t anyone play Scrabble anymore? I’m off to dinner. Have a great evening everyone :)
Have at it! I was driving home one day and the song “”Fat Bottomed Girls”” came on the radio. I started thinking about all of the euphemisms we use for buttocks and came up with a “”Butt List”” that my teenage children put on the refrigerator and added to over time. We probably came up with more than 75 different words used to describe the derriere. Using slang does not preclude one from using new or different words as well. Slang adds spice to language.
Well, coming from an English teacher’s perspective, I actually do see slang far too often precluding people from developing vocabulary.
In every day society, I also see slang used ubiquitously and often just wish for *less of it. More importantly though, I find the multitude of complex words to describe things in the English language “spicy” and so different perspectives perhaps on what constitutes spiciness.
I can imagine the list of words for derriere being a long one. In my Intro to Women’s Studies course, I used to shut the door early in the semester and ask students to come up with a list of slang words on the board to describe women in our culture and then a contrasting list of words to describe men. Douchebag used to be on the female list, but it has been a number of years since I’ve done this exercise, and so maybe it’s now the hip word to describe men. Some of the foul slang for men is interesting too and it can be surprising what has a masculine as opposed to feminine connotation. I remember students being quite adamant, for example, that “asshole” could only be applied to men! Note here at AAR how often “feisty” is used only as an infantalizing insult for females. Language is fso telling in terms of gender politics.
The list of foul slang for women in my above exercise was always *significantly* longer, which is telling about the power of sexism in our society. How many words for snow in Arctic cultures?
Ooh, Mary, you should see the Blue Man Groups “”Bottom Song”” – it’s hilarious and they come up with more ways to say butt than I could ever imagine. Google it. :)
Am googling right now!!!
When reading this, I interpreted your words to mean you would like them to adopt different ones that meet your definition of what is considered foul or do away with slang usage altogether. If I am reading you wrong, then forgive me, but that is what you seemed to convey – a request for change. I certainly think you should express your opinion if you believe a word is foul, discriminatory, etc. I do the same thing. But everyone has different definitions of what constitutes foul and attempts to limit language can be a form of censorship. I always like to tread carefully where censorship is concerned. I stated previously that douchebag is not a word that I normally use and in the privacy of my own home, I would say “”dickhead.”” I would most likely not use this word in a blog title unless it really called for it, however I have read a number of book review blogs that have used this word. It does not bother me nor does it make me think less of the writer.
The older I get the less careful I am to restrain myself in language usage. I have found that to be extraordinarily freeing. There are words that make me cringe and I would be happy if they were eliminated from our vocabulary – slut comes to mind because of the double standard it conveys with relation to the different sexual mores of men vs. women. So I do understand your dislike of the word douchebag even though I disagree that it is misogynistic. Since it is a term directed at men rather than women, we could discuss whether it is in fact misandry, but that is another debate :0). I have read many reviews that use slang and colloquialisms and for the most part I find that is a very effective technique that resonates with at least this reader. There is the danger of stripping language to a degree that it becomes dry and boring.
I actually would like douchebag retired, as I first stated, but I am only expressing a wish, since I have no power here on an online fiction site. In the classroom, however, I would most likely return writing with those type of words and have students redo their writing. In a literature course years ago, I was in a class with a professor whose head nearly exploded because a student submitted a paper on _Pride & Prejudice_ where he referred to Mr. Darcy as an “”asshole.”” So, boundaries and context matter. As I’ve stated though, many people here seem very comfortable with the word douchebag. I don’t think it’s appropriate or fitting and perhaps an alternative view is food for thought. Probably enough said on this subject though. The thoughts expressed on Rhett and Scarlett were much more interesting.
Thank you for the interesting and civil discussion.
Oh, you are most welcome!! Thanks, Mary :)
I enjoyed this conversation. In fact, my obsession with freedom of speech stems from my desire to have exactly this kind of dialog. Thank you both for your insightful comments.
They were hellaciously enthralling!
Is the AAR site common parlance though, or does it strive to be somewhat more than that when discussing fiction? Also, I would not assume that my disgruntlement with foul language would necessarily influence AAR reviewers, but since this is an open forum, presumably it’s fine for readers to post alternative views of what one considers inappropriate language. I personally would not refer to literary characters as dickheads, bitches, or douchebags and try to aim for more intellectual and appropriate word choices, but perhaps I’m in the minority on this site?
Think about the title “”Kafir Boy”” (which means nigger in English). Mark Mathabane’s autobiography used this foul word for emphasis. It was powerful. I am sure there were many people who objected to his title because the word is a pejorative. The only language we can really control is our own. By asking someone else to change their language to fit our own sensibilities, it robs them of their own agency to use language as they see fit. It is an attempt to shut down their right to expression as far as I am concerned. I may personally not like certain language usage, but I will defend the right of others to use language that may be offensive to me. I fully agree with you that you have the right to see the word as foul and be upset. I do not agree that you have the right to ask the originator of that blog to change it. What if it were changed and another poster decides he/she does not like the alternative?
But I did not ask someone to change their word, nor did I demand it, which would be pointless as I am merely a reader here. I did express my wish that AAR could adopt less offensive slang words. It’s a bit like hearing an offensive joke and expected to stay silent or laugh along with everyone else. Sometimes it is helpful to speak up and state why certain words are rude and offensive. As I said though, I do not expect AAR reviewers to change their language simply because I wish it were otherwise. Just perhaps a different perspective here to consider, especially since so many people seem happy to bandy about foul words.
I have used the word “”fuck”” in my reviews here when I think it appropriate. I don’t see this an an unintellectual choice–it’s a good old Anglo Saxon word that sometime gets across exactly what I want it to. I tend to see the freedom to use words, any words, as one of the greatest gifts the free world offers. It takes a lot for me to agree a word should not be used.
Hi Dabney – I don’t really see this as a freedom of speech issue though, since no one is saying you “”can’t”” use whatever word you want! Of course, you can. But as with all freedom of speech cases, there might be others that challenge your language. I find “”fuck”” to be rather unimaginative, even as an Anglo-Saxon derivative, and I hope that we can find more fitting words (verbs) in literary conversations in public. If the word “”fuck”” is a word that drives an entire conversation about a literary work, I would probably state my disagreement. Since so many people are comfortable using the word douchebag to describe a character, it may be helpful to hear an alternative view on the matter :)
Most slang and curse words are the very definition of imagination and creativity as they generally began as euphemisms for other words and many slang words lose their slang status over time as they gain common usage. “”Out darn spot”” does not have the same impact as “”out damn spot.””
Perhaps, though slang is usually the easiest word to grab onto. Searching one’s mind and vocabulary for more pointed words take effort and time. Every time my partner and I find ourselves cursing like lumberjacks in our home we remind each other of how lazy it is to use “”fuck”” when there are multitudes of more specifically appropriate and complex words we can use. We’re word people though and spend our lives studying and teaching phonics and etymology and so we have no excuses.
I love the word dickhead. There’s a succinctness about it that works for me.
I agree Dabney. It really is all encompassing isn’t it?
I am rarely in a situation where I would refer to another person as a dickhead. I suppose if we’re in situations where we are searching for demeaning and denigrating insults, douchebags and dickheads fit the bill! Since I teach writing and rhetoric frequently, I have to say that I do encourage writers to focus on the argument rather than the person when framing debate and disagreement. We do though live in a culture where personal attacks are far more frequent.
For this current themed-blog, authors are all deceased and can’t speak for themselves. I can imagine many contemporary authors not really wanting to read reviews of their work where formal reviewers refer to their characters as dickheads, douchebags, bitches or assholes. But maybe that’s just my own unique perspective!
Yes, certainly language changes to accommodate history and culture, and history and culture changes to accommodate language. And yes, students and all need to know differences between formality and informality. In the trenches of the classroom, it is a daily battle! Informality is appropriate in all sort of places. Again, I may be in the minority but here in a discussion about fiction, foul language seems inappropriate and that’s just my honest response as a reader of fiction blogs. I differentiate between foul language and other forms of slang though, and it’s really some words that need to be rethought. I do not believe necessarily that douchebag will become common parlance, any more than I believe that other foul words will, but time will tell, I suppose. It’s note right now a word that I hear bandied about without a cringe factor.
I personally never use the word “”douchebag.”” If I were using what I say in common parlance, it would be “”dickhead.”” Foul language is in the eye of the beholder. ;0)
I ditto what Mary said about the foulness of a word being in the eye of the beholder. While I don’t find douchebag to be a “”pretty”” word, I’ve never considered it foul. I personally find it to be a contemporary word used to describe a very particular type of person – in fact a particular type of man. In the context of the blog, I find that it fits very well. And as far as I know, I don’t think douchebag is technically considered to be profanity. It certainly is used on network television enough to convince me that it isn’t considered profanity by the general public. I certainly prefer the term douchebag over some of the other misogynistic terms I’ve heard used that I can’t even type here.
Maybe that’s why it seems shocking to me, as I just don’t encounter it among friends and colleagues and can’t imagine uttering it casually in conversation. The meaning itself is gross and so it seems shocking to see it in writing and so casually used. I have watched _How I Met Your Mother_ with my niece, as it is her favorite show, and it is used frequently there. Once colloquial words become too common, they tend to lose shock value and so many people uttering the word may also be using it devoid of much meaning to them.
There are so many ways to expand one’s vocabulary pointedly and effectively though without resorting to foul language, and so here is where I do disagree with AAR reviewers. I notice that reviews of books largely refrain from foul and offensive words, and I do appreciate that. Referring to another woman as a bitch serves mostly as a reminder that we’ve imbibed hateful and sexist language, and it’s quite a stretch to use it in an empowering sense. Furthermore, it keeps our vocabulary at its basest and most lowest form. I have to say too as a college English professor, I am daily dealing with this issue from students who more and more struggle to understand differences among slang, text language and more appropriate professional language. I do, of course, recognize that AAR is not a “”professional”” or “”academic”” site for reviewing books, but I also do still wish there were adherence to social decorum when it comes to using the foulest of terms. I might be in the minority in this, but that’s what I would have to say on this issue. Thanks!
Language by its very nature evolves. We certainly do not speak English now as they did in Elizabethan times or the language of Chaucer. Texting language has evolved to fit a need in a very technologically changing society. I do not see this as a bad thing and part of the educational experience is to show students the differences between formal and informal language when writing. I seriously doubt that the English language will not evolve significantly in the next 500-1000 years to the point that people in future times will not look back on how we use language with both humor as well as a lack of knowledge on our linguistics. Spellings and word usage may change to adapt to fit the needs of that society. A language that does not change is a language that eventually dies.
My daughter wrote me today to tell me that she had slipped and fallen on the street and that got her to thinking about colloquialisms describing falling and we started a list. I just emailed her back to tell her I remembered another one: “”ass over tea kettle.”” Some would take umbrage at hearing that saying, but I think it perfectly describes a fall where a flip is involved.
I actually have in terms of the word “”bitch.”” It is a word designed to shut down discussion or argument when used by a male especially, but not confined to the male gender. Somewhere in my late teens or early twenties, I began to say “”thank you”” when someone called me a bitch. It meant they wanted to stop me from speaking and I demonstrated by embracing it that it meant I had won the argument. Many words come into usage in any language because there is a need to express something in a different way. I find linguistics and etymology fascinating and love to research into the origins of language. When it comes to language I am in favor of expansion rather than restriction.
And I view it the opposite way as women taking ownership of something originally used in a misogynistic way against women and our natural bodily functions and turning it on those who treat women poorly. Obviously your mileage and mine vary. If I limited my reading experiences to only those books which refrain from using “”crass”” words, then I would be missing out on some very good books. Sometimes words that may be less than genteel when used for emphasis are necessary to convey the strong emotions that more mild words cannot. So maybe we will just have to agree to disagree on this one. :0)
No, I think you’ve misunderstood. I read plenty of books with crass language and I engage regularly (daily, in fact) in literary critiques of anti-heroes and degenerative characters of all kinds. World literature is hugely populated with all sorts of characters! To critique them, however, we do not need to resort to offensive language but can use our imaginations and select more fitting and sharply targeted wording. Douchebag to me is not only an offensive and misogynist term, but it completely lacks intellectual imagination. We could all sling around a huge array of gross swear words here to explain our dislike or frustration with any character, but that would just reveal our lack of imagination and not reflect on any literary text.
As far as women recuperating negative words to empower themselves, I see this often with women referring to other women as “”bitches”” and, of course, the very controversial use of the “”n”” word in communities of people of color. It’s an interesting issue but I have never found it particularly persuasive and I have no interest in calling any woman a bitch or any man a douchebag. Isn’t there a more intellectually engaging way to discuss fiction? I hope so!!
I actually view the word as a misogynist term aimed at women and female bodily functions. Not surprising that a man created the douche for women. I understand completely that Rhett is not a “”gentleman”” though, and therefore we are debating whether his lack of gentlemanly traits is in question. Note though that AAR has used douchebag rather liberally in the context of Darcy and Rochester too, so this is not a term that is strictly applied just to one character. It seems gimmicky and reaching to the lowest denominator to strike a fun literary conversation. Every time I see the word I cringe and wish we could strike a bit of a higher tone here, as this website usually does, even if we are assessing undesirable character traits. We don’t have to become that which we critique, after all, do we?
But, a douchebag is not a classy person and that is kind of the point. He is the opposite of a classy person and a more “”refined”” word would not convey this as well as the more crass version, IMO. From my brief research into the etymology of “”douchebag,”” I could find no sources that state it originated in “”the ghetto”” (and maybe it is just me, but I find the term “”ghetto slang”” more offensive as it has some serious and negative racial overtones). Douchebag can actually be seen as an arrow sling at the patriarchy IMO. Men invented douches (I believe in the 19th century) so women would smell better. So it is a hit at a male created product aimed at making women more palatable for men and not sexist as some would proclaim IMO. However, this term has been in common usage for over 50 years and has passed into the common usage lexicon just as “”cool”” and “”peeps”” have (which DID originate in the “”ghetto””).
Even though I’ve never read the book, I have watched the film at least two dozen times. I loved this discussion. It truly made me sit back and think about one of my favorite characters. Personally, I’ve been in love with Rhett since I was 11, but that’s just me. I agree with Mary though. I think Rhett was both. Just like all men, he has his moments of being a douchebag, but he also was able to pull of the gentleman if need be.
I never understood why in the heck he would join an army that he ridiculed in the beginning of the story. That decision always felt “”off”” to me, almost as if the author didn’t want to keep them together and needed a reason to tear a rift between them for conflict. *shrugs*
Scarlett might have been strong and a survivor, but she was selfish and rude most of the time. Rhett and Scarlett played off of each other. Their temperaments were were volatile when matched, and I honestly think that if they’d have stayed together, they wouldn’t have been happy…ever.
I think Rhett saw Scarlett as a challenge. Part of his strategy to win her over had to be playing the part of the gentleman interlaced with moments of being the douchebag.
I still love Rhett. What can I say? I like a challenge too. ;)
Kirsten, my take on why Rhett would join an army that he ridiculed in the beginning of the story is that the point of the fight has changed dramatically. In the beginning, Rhett sees the war as an enormous folly, with the men around him saying things like, “”‘Why, we could lick them in a month! Gentlemen always fight better than rabble. A month–why, one battle–‘”” In response to Stuart Tarleton, the character who says that, Rhett quotes Napoleon’s “”‘God is on the side of the strongest battalion.'”” He doesn’t want to be part of something he can see is a huge mistake motivated by empty ideals. He’s certainly not going to join just to show everyone how courageous he is, because he (frankly) doesn’t give a damn what other people think.
But by the time Rhett joins the army, all of the posturing and bluster has gone out of the war. It’s after Gettysburg, and Atlanta is burning. Now the fight isn’t about abstract concepts like states’ rights, or about showing the “”rabble”” that gentlemen can fight better, or teaching the Yankees a lesson. Years of war have winnowed out all the “”stupid fools who were enticed into losing their lives by a roll of drums and brave words from orators–fools who killed themselves that wise men might make money.”” Now the South is free of illusions and fighting desperately for survival. Rhett is all about survival; one of his most admirable qualities is that he’s perceptive enough and determined enough to land on his feet, no matter what. Even he realizes he’s breaking his own code, joining the war effort. He tells Scarlett, “”I shall never understand or forgive myself for this idiocy. I am annoyed at myself to find that so much quixoticism still lingers in me.”” But now that his warnings about the war have proven true, he’s “”ashamed”” to be on the outside looking in. If the fight is an honest one instead of a delusional quest for bragging rights and glory, and if he’s defending something he truly cares about, he’s not afraid to fight.
I read both Scarlett and Rhett as iconoclasts that reject restrictive social codes of conduct. There are arguments to be made too that they are both anti-heroes, and at the very least, non-conformists. Both rebel in their own ways against 19th-century gender codes, as well as other norms of behavior. I was always intrigued, for instance, that Rhett had sharp ideas about warfare and the prevailing ideas about the Confederacy. I find both of them quite fascinating apart, and explosive together. There is certainly something of a romance here, but I do not read GWtW as a romance novel. I am probably in the minority in that I really don’t care if they end up together. They remain fascinating each whether they do or not.
I do wish though that the word “”douchebag”” could be retired and a classier word used for these analyses! Love the conversations, hate the ghetto slang.
I love “”douchebag.”” But then again, I love slang. Many of the words we now use every day had their origins as slang. Bamboozle was a “”Gypsy”” word in the 1500s that made it into English as slang. The world dude first appeared as slang in the US in the 1870s. The list is endless.
Douchebag is a hideous and vulgar slang word, not remotely cute or funny. I am admittedly not a fan of slang in general, but some words are far less offensive. Again, the conversations are great but the profanity is unattractive, I think :(
I love slang too! Have you ever read a slang dictionary? So much fun just to browse. I’m very amused by the permutations… asshole became assclown or asshat, now douchebag has become douchenozzle and douchecanoe… goodness –or the slang dictionary — only knows why!
I have. I also routinely giggle over the entries in the Urban Dictionary.
But, a douchebag is not a classy person and that is kind of the point. He is the opposite of a classy person and a more “refined” word would not convey this as well as the more crass version, IMO. From my brief research into the etymology of “douchebag,” I could find no sources that state it originated in “the ghetto” (and maybe it is just me, but I find the term “ghetto slang” more offensive as it has some serious and negative racial overtones). Douchebag can actually be seen as an arrow sling at the patriarchy IMO. Men invented douches (I believe in the 19th century) so women would smell better. So it is a hit at a male created product aimed at making women more palatable for men and not sexist as some would proclaim IMO. However, this term has been in common usage for over 50 years and has passed into the common usage lexicon just as “cool” and “peeps” have (which DID originate in the “ghetto”).
P.S. If this gets posted more than once, I am getting an error message, so pardon me in advance.
Rhett was a non-conformist until he married Scarlett, expected her to become Melanie, and decided that he had to turn Bonnie into a Southern Maiden by trashing her mother.
Oh, good observations! Rhett is a complex person.
I find it interesting that complex heroines are very admired but a complex hero is instantly judged, tried and condemned for that “”fault””.
Btw, I finally saw GWTW a decade ago and didn’t get the hype about it.
oh my post above is to Alyssa Everett’s comment!
I will join you in the minority position. :-)
Oh, good! Maybe we should form a club. ;-)
In the interest of full disclosure, I have to preface my remarks by noting that I’m Alabama-born and -bred. ;-) I confess, I’ve always thought the most compelling storylines in the book were those that never made it into the movie: the “”second-best”” belle (behind Scarlett; I can’t remember her name) who was pretty much forced to marry her father’s overseer; the Tarleton mother & daughters who were left with no visible means of support after all five(?) of the sons were killed; the piteous question, “”Who’s going to marry Southern girls?””; and most of all, Will, who married Scarlett’s sister Sue Ellen. I can remember the first time I read the book, concocting “”marriage of convenience”” plots in my head for the first & last of these when their stories were not resolved to my satisfaction. I realize I’m in the minority here, but give me Will over Rhett any day!
As a 49 year old woman raised in SC I have seen the movie more times than I can count. I have it on VHS somewhere and my mother has the original hardback. I have never looked upon that time period as one of the glorious south. Our family has one of the original land grants from the king. We still have that land in the family. We also had a property in Charleston but it was taken either by the yankees or who know. Our family became persona non grata when my great- grandfather several greats back did not marry his mistress but lived with her and their children. He never married (and could not marry his slave). He was the first to free his slaves and he also included his children in his will by giving them land which made him the first to give a “”slave”” land though these were his own children. We are still searching for info. but it is hard to find. His did tick off one brother by consorting with those beneath him that his brother changed his name. I knew when I watched the film the first time that we had been slave owners and life was not good. Our family was not wealthy by any means. I think my great grandfather tried to make sure his kids were landowners and the land could not be taken away from them.
I believe Scarlett did the best she could. So many women were left by their men and had to do what they could to get by. With Rhett and his reputation in Charleston he should not have gotten far in Atlanta. I do love the book and the movie. In Ya-Ya-Sisterhood book the details about going to Atlanta to see attend the premire are so great. I think Margaret Mitchell wanted Rhett to be a bad boy redeemed.
I agree that Scarlett did the best she could. She was in a tough situation with absolutely no training to help her handle it. It would have been so easy to turn her back on all her dependents, head north or west and use her charm to snare a rich husband to take care of her. Instead, she took care of everyone.
And none of them (except for Melanie) appreciated it!
That’s what gets me – they took her money, then trash-talked her for being unladylike. Well, they didn’t care where the ‘unladylike’ cash came from, did they?
I read that book as a young and impressionable 6th grader, so I was maybe 11 or 12? Anyway, it left me quite depressed. They are both such horrible people. I finally found Scarlett, and I choose to think of it as canonical, I couldn’t bear it otherwise.
To me the book doesn’t read well as a romance but does read well as epic history.
I’m firmly in the douchebag camp.
I tried the book during my early teens and hated both the characters so much I couldn’t finish it.
It’s such a long book with such difficult characters — I don’t blame you!
Honestly, the only main character who was a genuinely good person through and through was Melanie Hamilton, but she was so naively kind and sweet that she could get annoyingly pathetic.
I just read Gone With the Wind with the mindset of “Rhett and Scarlett are despicable people who I’d never want to be involved with in real life, but their relationship and their lives are this trainwreck that I can’t look away from.”
I think he is a douchebag! While he did have some moments of genuine kindness and did bring out the best in Scarlett – if you put him up against any other woman in the book as a potential hero – he would have failed. While it’s true that they might have deserved each other – their age difference actually highlights the fact that Scarlett could change as she grew older but Rhett was already an established adult who didn’t or wouldn’t change as the story progressed.
He treated other women besides Scarlett badly. In Charleston there was a young lady he left town with and their buggy broke down. It took them forever to get back to civilization and he refused to marry her even though he was the one who had dragged her alone out into the country in a faulty buggy. That’s what earned him his bad rep. He had also been kicked out of West Point for something to do with women though I don’t think we ever know the details. He also had asked Scarlett to be his mistress. Personally, I don’t think the big dance scene where pays for her to dance is that romantic. I think he was trying to move her beyond respectable society so that Scarlett would finally give in to a clandestine (for those times) relationship. It had to frustrate him no end that Scarlett turned her passion and lust for life not towards sexual activity but towards making money. Protecting her family and never being poor again are Scarlett’s priorities. Everything else is just icing.
You’re very hard on him, Maggie! While I also feel that Rhett is both a dreamboat and a douchebag (at times), I can’t blame him for the incident with the girl and the buggy. Though normally I love a gentleman to step in and offer marriage to save a reputation (I write regencies), Rhett was rebelling against a whole host of hypocrisies, including the ones that later nearly forced his mother and sister to starve rather than accept money from him. Here’s his description of the buggy incident:
“”So many things that one must do because they’ve always
been done. So many things, quite harmless, that one must not do for the same reason. So many things that annoyed me by their senselessness. Not marrying the young lady, of whom you have probably heard, was merely the last straw. Why should I marry a boring fool, simply because an accident prevented me from getting her home before dark? And why permit her wild-eyed brother to shoot and kill me, when I could shoot straighter? If I had been a gentleman, of course, I would have let him kill me and that would have wiped the blot from the Butler escutcheon. But–I like to live.””
For Rhett, not offering for a girl he didn’t love was a matter of principle, even if became the last straw that gave him his “”terrible reputation”” and caused his father to disown him.
What redeems Rhett for me (and I say this with the caveat that I have to close one eye to all the racism in the book, not just from Rhett but from all the characters) is that he’s the only character who always, always calls things as he sees them. Even Scarlett recognizes that “”he frequently told bald truths about himself when he spoke mockingly–mocking himself as well as others.”” In fact, I would argue that he’s one of the most consistently objective and honest characters in fiction. He likes puncturing people’s illusions and pretensions, but he’s usually right. For example, he’s the only person who stands up at the Wilkes’s barbecue and points out that the South doesn’t have the resources to win a fight with the North. And his humor is both intelligent and funny:
“”For instance when she decided to change the name of ‘Kennedy’s General Store’ to something more edifying, she asked him to think of a title that would include the word ’emporium.’ Rhett suggested ‘Caveat Emptorium,’ assuring her that it would be a title most in keeping with the type of goods sold in the store. She thought it had an imposing sound and even went so far as to have the sign painted, when Ashley Wilkes, embarrassed, translated the real meaning.””
So I like Rhett overall, because he’s funny and whip-smart, and he lives by a code, never tolerating hypocrisy in himself or others. When he’s interacting with people who aren’t hypocrites (Melanie and the children in the book being good examples), he can be just as kind and honorable as any other dreamboat. He just lives in a highly hypocritical setting.
Well, I definitely see your points but didn’t Rhett ultimately embrace hypocrisy for the sake of Bonnie?
Guess I always felt that Rhett did what was convenient for Rhett. When he believed the South couldn’t win at that party he didn’t run to the north but used the lack of supplies he warned the confederacy of to earn money, first as a blockade runner and later as a food profiteer. He flaunted tradition but later when he wanted Bonnie to fit in he threw Scarlett to the gossips (she was entertaining Yankees!) while he rode around with the kids in a carriage so they wouldn’t be exposed to the horrors of people who didn’t believe in slavery.
Yes. Yes. And yes.
And yes.
I always felt he was a hypocrite – always encouraging Scarlett to be “”scandalous”” and thumb her nose at society – then he married her and expected he to be a Melanie clone, threw her to the wolves when he decided that Bonnie MUST be a lady. Ugh. I hated him.
I completely agree!
I’ve always thought Rhett was afraid of Scarlett. If she’d known how much he loved her, she would have walked all over him. So he was afraid to let it show and let his douchery try to keep the upper hand with her. She only wanted the challenge until she grew up. Then it was too late. But I choose to believe that it works out for them someday.
I think you make an excellent point about Rhett not letting Scarlett know he loves her because he is afraid of how she’ll treat him once he knows. I’ve always thought that Scarlett liked the thrill of the chase more than catching the men. She grew bored with Ashley the second the impediment between them was gone.
I agree with Mary that he is both. There is a dreamboat quality in his pursuit of Scarlett but his behavior often crosses the line into douchebag.
I wonder if it is the Clark Gable affect that makes him both? I read somewhere that Gary Cooper was the studios first choice and turned the role down. Would Cooper have brought a dreamboat quality to the role like Gable did? Hard to tell.
I can’t see Cooper making this moment swoon worthy. It is the scene Heather talked about with the line “”You should be kissed and often and by someone who knows how!””
here
Great points! I haven’t read the book in ages and forgot just how badly he treated Scarlet. Douchebag vote from me!
There were moments when he was so mean, it was disgusting. ;-)
I have to admit that I skimmed the book — it never was a favorite. Although I did watch the movie. Neither characters are favorites.
I liked Scarlett, mostly because I admired how she took care of her family in spite of the fact that she had no idea what she was doing. I think in modern times Scarlett would be a rising star in some corporation.
I never could like Rhett. A grown man chasing after a child? Ick.
I think even if Rhett had confessed his love to Scarlett, she wouldn’t have taken it. She had to walk her path to realize that she didn’t love Ashley.
The staircase scene has never looked like rape to me. He grabs her roughly and at first she is scared while he is mounting the staircase. But when he stops at the landing and kisses her everything is wiped out from her mind and she returns his kisses.