One of the great joys of 2020 has been the tenor, complexity, and abundance of the conversations here at AAR. We’ve had so many excellent, interesting, and, yes, feisty discussions here this year.
The 2020 post that’s generated the most comments is the [email protected]: What’s your topic deal breaker? one published in June. That garnered 183 comments and got several of our readers rather wound up about contemporary American politics. (It is 2020!) In it, like several other posts this year, the discussion veered into the accusatory and I asked those involved to stop.
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I’ve tried to have it both ways at AAR. I’d like for everyone to feel at home here and I’d like for us all to accept the views of those with whom we disagree. It’s a tough act. Several commenters have sent me furious emails–not as many as have sent me happy emails, but still–saying that by allowing some sorts of speech we are innately silencing those who feel oppressed by that speech. A few other commenters have publically quit the site, dismissing AAR as an unsafe space.
Safe spaces and free speech are difficult things to simultaneously accomplish and it’s true that I personally value the latter over the former when I must choose. I’d prefer not to choose and that wish drives the choices I make as the site’s moderator.
I’m curious how you feel about the discussion here. Is it working for you? What do you think we are doing well? What could we do better?
And if you don’t feel comfortable commenting publicly, please feel free to email me.
Thanks and happy chatting!
I really don’t have much to add to the discussion. I’ve been coming to AAR for almost 10 years now. I had taken a long break from reading romance and came to AAR looking to get reacquainted with the genre, and it was very helpful. I found a lot of books and authors back then, and began binging quite heavily on romance. The site has been great for finding new books and authors to read. I’ve slowed down on my romance reading in the last year, but still like keeping up with what’s being published in case it stirs my interest. IRL, I don’t really have anyone to talk to about books. AAR has always seemed open to civil discussions and been friendly, welcoming and respectful, so I keep returning–sometimes as a lurker just reading reviews and comments, and sometimes dipping into discussions that interest me and as my limited time permits. I appreciate the efforts that go into keeping a site like this running.
Wow! I am late to the party, but I am impressed at the thoughtful comments generated by Dabney’s excellent questions. Thank you for asking! To me, this is a great discussion. People have been thoughtful, respectful, and even educational. Would that all message boards (or governments or workplaces or families…) operate at this level.
I’ve been lurking here since the beginning of 2020, and I am grateful to have this as a refuge from all the stuff that is going on out in the world. As for me, I prefer to stay away from politics. If that were a big part of the conversation, I would not check in as often.
From my short time here, I believe there is a good balance between creating a safe space (as outlined in the “About” link above) and free speech. But perhaps I haven’t seen a situation get out of hand? I don’t have time to read everything. I think it’s important to always keep in mind the rules set forth in the “About” section when posting, and I wonder if this is something that could be highlighted from time to time to keep it in the forefront of people’s minds? Some sites tolerate a lot of nastiness, and if you have new people coming in who are used to different norms, then they will need to be educated on this site’s norms. If they are educated and not willing to be respectful, then they bear the consequences.
There are several misrepresentation in the comments about what we’re guaranteed in regards to free speech
1: Ones freedom of speech does not apply to the internet, individual laws and countries mostly govern said protocols. If you’re American, your freedom of speech guarantees you and the press from protection from the government. It doesn’t mean that people don’t have the right to call you out online.
2: “Cancel culture” is not people disliking a comment you made on the internet. “Cancel culture” is doxxing, abuse, threats, and damage to ones livelihood, and in many cases it stems from actual abuse the person has meted out to others online .
What is ‘doxxing’?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doxing
“is the Internet-based practice of researching and publicly broadcasting private or identifying information (especially personally identifying information) about an individual or organization.”
Thank you!
So many insightful and eloquently articulated comments here! There’s no way I could ever say what Lieselotte said or Chrisreader said or Carrie G said or what was said in many other great comments in a way that didn’t sound as if I was just stealing their words and then putting them together in a shabbier way – I so very much agree with them, and they’ve all put it so perfectly. Then again, perhaps I don’t have to. Perhaps what follows in all its possible awkwardness will do just fine. (I’m trying to embrace this attitude.)
I have now visited this site for a bit over a year, I think, and started to participate a little in the discussions during this autumn. I’ve been following the discussions avidly ever since I found this place, however, and just reading what people here think about a myriad of subjects and all sorts of books – I’ve always found it fascinating and greatly educational.
Group discussions have not worked for me in real life. I am simply too slow and nobody likes a person who, in their desperate attempt to keep up with others, ends up just sitting there with a blank expression on their face, looking at no one and saying nothing.(That’s unfortunately what I’m like when I concentrate intensely.) And while I’m okay with not being liked, and would never expect the whole group to proceed at my pace, having several neurodevelopmental disorders doesn’t mean that I wouldn’t like to exchange thoughts every once in a while. Nor does it make the situation any less frustrating.
So it had been over a decade since I’d last had anyone to talk literature with. Over time, this site had started to feel like a place where it wouldn’t be too scary to try again. Where it would be okay to possibly make a fool out of myself. Use my clunky English. Perhaps make mistakes and hopefully just laugh them off if they aren’t that big and only affect me, and in other cases naturally apologize, learn and strife to do better in the future. And it has. It has been more than okay in fact – it has been wonderful. I mean, I’m still rather often if not the last then one of the last commenters and it still takes me embarrassingly long time to answer other people’s comments, but because the discussions go on for several days, and because if I don’t understand or have forgot some part of someone’s comment I can go and read it again, I can indeed participate a little. To me it’s a big change and means a great deal. So I guess what I’m trying to say with this long-winded personal story is that the way you’ve organized the discussions here and the way people have treated me have made it possible for someone who is different like me – autistic with learning disabilities – to do something that’s been impossible before.
So yeah, I am very grateful for this site. For the simple fact that it exists. For the reviews and the people who write them. For the steals and deals. For the discussions. For the power search, tags, recommendations, older articles, everything – I mean, this place is such a cornucopia of all things romance novel related. It cannot be easy to run this site. It cannot be easy to moderate the discussions. Not just anyone could write the kind of reviews we see here – it takes both skill and deep understanding of the genre. I thank everyone involved for their time and hard work – I greatly appreciate it and think you’re doing an excellent job! And all the people who come here to discuss, I thank you too for sharing your thoughts – I consider it a gift and have learned much.
Lovely comment annik. If this is you being “clunky” with your words, may we all be so clunky! Speaking for myself, I love it when I see a fresh voice jump in.
I know from the number of responses AAR gets when they do a big poll that there must be exponentially more people who look here than comment so when someone “new” comes to comment it makes me happy to see that they felt welcome or inspired to comment.
Like you, this is my primary outlet and source of inspiration for romance reading so when the community gets a little larger I feel like its a gift to everyone here.
Annik, I thought your comments were very articulate and well thought-out. You may have challenges, but you seem to manage with them quite nicely!
Welcome to the site and the discussion threads, I always appreciate new voices and opinions.
Thank you Dabney for the hugs and Chrisreader and KesterGayle for your kind words!
I too had noticed that there seemed to be more people participating in the polls than commenting. Plus I knew I was there, just reading, and figured surely I couldn’t be the only one. I can think of many reasons why a person might not want or be able to join in the discussions. Maybe for some it will become possible to participate more at some point in the future as happened with me, which would be wonderful, and maybe for some it never will and that’s okay too. I think it’s important to have the option to just come to the site and read the comments even if one cannot join in, as I know that sometimes just being able to get another perspective and read other people’s thoughts on a subject you find important can be a lifeline.
It is good to hear I’m doing alright communicating in English. I consider it one of my biggest accomplishments in life that I’ve actually been able to learn another language and can read and with more difficulty write in it. I had the hardest time studying English in school, and I am so, so glad that when it became clear that I wouldn’t be studying any languages after the 9th grade I had the sense to recognize that I would have to actively use English or all the sweating and crying over the school books would have been for nothing. So I decided to start reading fiction books in English as well as in my own language. At first it was shockingly hard as I’d thought I actually knew the language. Knew my foot! It took me weeks to read one book and even with a dictionary glued to my other hand I missed so much I could barely understand what was going on. But it got better. Now, after a bit over two decades, I feel kind of weird reading fiction in my own language because I do it so much less often. It is a simple fact that I wouldn’t be writing this now had I not made that decision back then and then kept on reading.
Anyway, thank you so much for the warm welcome! I am looking forward to the discussions to come! :)
I would not know you are not a native speaker of English by your posts. You write very well. When I worked retail, I tried to assure my customers who apologized for not speaking “good” English. I’m impressed when anyone can speak more than one language and I told them they are doing so much better than I am, because I only know English. (And my two English teacher siblings assure me I mess English up quite often enough!)
I have a neighbor from Poland who has an impressive English vocabulary. Once she was hunting around for the word she wanted, then apologized for her ‘poor English’. Like we native English speakers never do that! I just told her that her English was better than my Polish (nonexistent) and left it at that.
If you speak, write, or read more than one language I say bravo!
KesterGayle, I love your answer to your neighbor! I also really admire her (your neighbor, that is) and anyone who can fluently speak another language. I find it SO much harder to speak English than read or write it. I have trouble with communicating even in my own language, so sometimes I try to practice speaking English by eliminating all the interpersonal stuff, and do speaking exercises alone. It is still not good. And I’m not just being modest. I really wish I had kept practicing speaking English with the same determination as I did reading.
In general, I think it’s pretty usual for people who are not conversing in their first language to feel self-conscious especially when they are speaking with a native speaker. I remember when I could still travel, I visited several countries here in Europe, and it felt so different speaking English with a German hostel worker or Greek shopkeeper or whoever when both of our pronunciation was what it was and neither of our grammar was perfect. All that mattered was that we managed to understand each other. Then I went to London and felt so much more self-conscious about the way I speak. All I could think was that if I open my mouth I’ll be butchering this beautiful language in front of someone who can spot every mistake I make. Yet every time I’ve heard any non-native speaking my language I’ve been just floored that they’ve actually gone and learned this super difficult language. I couldn’t have cared less about their possible mistakes. So I know my reaction didn’t really make sense, but I couldn’t help it and I still can’t.
annik,
English is different in every country that speaks it. Words are frequently pronounced differently, even spelled differently. For example, here in the US the final letter of the alphabet is pronounced “Z”, and in most of the UK it’s “Zed”. And there is the slang and the idioms and the way we appropriate words from other languages because nothing else works as well. There are regional accents that can be like listening to another language altogether! Its a complicated, fluid, and ever-changing language.
For you to be able to speak a second language at all is huge, and if you lived a while in a country that speaks English predominantly you’d pick it up pretty fast since you already learned in once. I think you’re very articulate in your written English, and in today’s world with the internet, spoken language can be nearly irrelevant.
So very glad you feel confident and happy to join in the discussions here, Annik, and with such an articulate voice! The discussions have been the best part of AAR for me over the last 20 years. It’s always satisfying for me when voices from many places join in and “the more the merrier”!!
That is such a lovely thing to say – thank you so much!
I find it so impressive and admirable that this site has been around for so long and that there are AAR veterans such as yourself still around. :)
First, I love that people talk here about a variety of books they like/dislike. (I’ve been too busy reading Zemindar to get into this discussion.)
Even more than that, I enjoy a site where people can disagree without attacks, name-calling, etc. Yes, the free speech guaranteed by the constitution only means that the government can’t censor you. Outside of that, common courtesy demands that you allow people to speak before you, calmly and rationally, explain why they are wrong. I have absolutely no patience with people who consider vituperation to be disagreement. This may put me out of step with the contemporary world, but I don’t much like the contemporary world, so that’s okay by me.
First and foremost:
Like many others have already expressed, I deeply appreciate AAR as a place to talk about books and to find new books to read. As someone who has stepped up in my life (not to just volunteer a few hours but) to actually “run” various non-profit organizations, I’m particularly appreciative of Dabney and the rest of the staff who put so much effort into making the site work for as many readers as possible.
Second:
I’ve enjoyed many of the @ask columns and I’ve learned a lot from everyone’s comments. I understand they add something to the site that entices all of us to log in more frequently, because there’s usually something interesting going on or to talk about. But sometimes the conversations devolve beyond being interesting or helpful, and I check out. But if the columns are driving away readers? They aren’t worth it if it puts the whole site at risk.
More specifically:
I don’t know how often I contribute with comments to @ask blog posts. I generally find that someone else will express what is essentially my opinion far more eloquently than I can. If someone else has already communicated what I believe, I’m sure I clicked a “like” button* and left it at that (although see note at bottom). It doesn’t feel productive to be repetitive beyond a simple statement of agreement. I don’t come to AAR for a fight or to defend a position. As others have pointed out, there are lots of places on the web for that if you are into it.
Now I worry that by not engaging more, I’ve allowed some commenters I agree with to feel “shouted down” or unsupported or marginalized.
It is all well and good to say/believe that free speech is important “as long as the attacks aren’t personal”. But in the social media space where the ink is essentially free, and the comments just. keep. coming, it becomes piling on; and it would feel personal to me if I were participating, even if another commenter has used the most general language to make her/his/their case one. more. time.
Third:
I want AAR to survive and prosper; and for that to happen, people need to want to visit the site and to support it by contributing – not just financially but with thoughtful content via
comments. The challenge for all of us as commenters is to know when we are contributing to an interesting conversation vs. trying to win an argument. Perhaps stating an opinion one time, or making a (new) point one time, should be sufficient?
*I get very uneven results clicking the like and don’t like buttons. I don’t believe they accurately reflect AAR community opinions as a result. But that doesn’t mean others see those “like” and “don’t like” counts and think they mean something about both the comment and the people who support AAR. How big a factor are these buttons to whatever else is going on with the question about @ask columns? Should the site retain them?
Personally, I dislike the buttons. They promote cancel culture, IMO.
I do not get feelings of warmth and acceptance from this website when–for example–I see perfectly acceptable posts (e.g., a post like “I thought the hero was not that bad, but I could not stand the heroine”) get heavily downvoted. And often, no comment is left to explain the downvote. Why bother? Just cancel the post.
If a reader cares enough about a post one way or the other, the reader should leave a comment explaining why.
And to nblibgirl as well: Thank you both for raising this. I have been thinking about the buttons as well during the discussion here. Leaving a brief comment to express a POV in a discussion is of immensely more value than just clicking a frown/smile. I have seen logical, well- argued, thoughtful, emtional comments “frowned” upon (even some of my own once or twice) when the contributor has taken the time and effort to post them. When I look at the button “scores”, I wonder what the frownee/smilers are thinking. And I wonder if the button “votes” could be responsible for driving away commentors, some who have been here a long time. Maybe this is an @ask topic for debate.
I don’t use the buttons or even really look at them. They’d be easy enough to get rid of.
I only use the like button and treat it as a „thank you for writing this“.
and they are unreliable, they come and go, sometimes a comment has 8, then a day later only 2.
so i mostly treat them as a marginal extra, would not miss them.
Dabney, I also think in some cases the downvote button is being used to express disapproval of the poster, not the post itself. That’s concerning.
Reddit has upvote/downvote buttons, too. On Reddit, people learn to “curate” what they post for fear of being downvoted. (Downvoting can ultimately result in some loss of posting privileges, or in your post being buried toward the bottom of a thread where it is less likely that others will see it.)
Some Redditors have stated that they use a second Reddit account to post opinions they know will be unpopular, so that their “regular” account is not impacted by the downvoting.
That is very, very sad.
Woah! I did not realize that about Reddit downvotes and curating comments. Yikes!
I was aware of some other issues on Reddit, such as the eroticauthors subreddit considering making users post a certain number of comments on other subreddits, ostensibly to weed out newbies with “stupid questions answered in the FAQ.” Their house, their rules. Fine. And I get some of the board mod’s frustration with commenters who clearly didn’t read the directions. But this suggestion brought a lot of upset because many people use Reddit for just one subreddit, so this proposed policy would have forced new eroticauthors Redditors to post stuff they had no interest in- clogging up other community’s forums. I’m glad AAR is nice to newbies as well as veteran posters- and doesn’t make rules like, “You must have x number of posts on (insert forum name here) in order to qualify for writing an AAR post!”
Nan, I participate in several subreddits (forums, for those who don’t know what a subreddit is). I use Reddit primarily because it is one of the only places I can find forums for certain topics I’m interested in.
As far as having to curate or sensor posts prior to posting, I find it depends on the subreddit. As you’ve seen, each subreddit decides its own posting rules and guidelines. I think some subreddits do a much better job than others at protecting/allowing diversity of opinion (as long as one is civil).
There is a very large subreddit that I used to look at but that I rarely read anymore, because its members have become increasingly hostile toward people who disagree with the prescribed viewpoint.
And yep, I’ve personally seen at least two posters mentioning having a second Reddit account reserved for posts they think will be unpopular.
Thanks for clarifying what goes on behind the scenes at Reddit, stl-reader. Now and then, I lurk on a few- or they pop up during general Google searches- but that’s about the extent of my involvement.
“I rarely read anymore, because its members have become increasingly hostile toward people who disagree with the prescribed viewpoint.” Yes, I’ve heard of complaints about Reddit in that department from other posters as well. Unfortunately, I think it’s a problem that is infecting a big chunk of the internet lately.
On that subject, I think some of the posters who emphatically quit AAR were expecting the same shut-down culture that’s become endemic throughout various social media platforms. And then they got upset that AAR is sticking to its guns about allowing civil disagreements rather than cancelling/banning controversial posters and/or posts altogether. Too much of social media is turning into high school cliques…
I like the “like” button because it means I can show my agreement without writing another post saying “agree!” or “Good point.” Posting these sorts of “like” comments could potentially clog up a discussions with dozens of needless posts, making everything more difficult to find and follow. I never have used a “dislike” button, and don’t see the need for one. If there is something I disagree with about a post enough to dislike, I will comment on it. Liking a post conveys a simple thing, disliking a post can convey so many things that it’s useless, imo. I would get rid of the dislike button.
People pressing a frowny face on your comments is not equable to cancel culture. No one is doxxing you, no one is telling others not to buy what you have to sell or telling others not to spend time with you, they’re just saying they don’t like your opinion.
I agree with that. very much.
Not agreeing with me is always unpleasant for me, even on very minor points, I feel the short sting of it. But I need to accept it as part of like, and if people give me a frowny face, I can take it. This is not cancel culture to me, and a bit of unpleasantness is a necessary boundary when interacting with others.
That said, it is nicer to have only the smiley face, and taking the effort to express a disagreement in words when it is important to me to do so is a reasonable burden to take, in such a forum as here.
Let’s try this. Upvoting is the only button allowed!
I didn’t see this before I posted above.This was my suggestion. I think having everyone comment with “Thank you” or “Agree!” with posts they like will make popular discussions unwieldy and mean scrolling through lots of non-discussion “like” posts to get to the meat. Keep the “like” and get rid of the”dislike.”
So far, I like the upvote button only for a lot of the reasons mentioned above. My big concern a while back was the potential use of a single button where the overall “like” meter slid up and down instead of having two separate “scores.” I.e. If 10 people disliked a post and one person liked it, the commenter had a score of -9, making it look like nobody liked the post. I’m glad you haven’t decided to do that!